The morality of poaching

[Wvroach]

Couple threads on poaching currently on here. While I'm against it 9.5 times out of 10 I have to ask do you all ever feel as though it is appropriate?

My personal opinion and I am sure it is skewed. I was in a position at one point in time where my family didn't have the money to eat if it wasn't for taking a few deer for sustenance and catching food from the river we wouldn't have eaten for those weeks.

I grew up in rural Appalachia in the poorest state in the US. My dad always worked until he ended up incarcerated for defending his family which he was eventually acquitted of, around 50k later in legal fees and job loss that left my family dead broke at the time. We lived with no running water or electricity In a 1 room cabin for a few years until they had saved enough money to move south and buy another home. Not a sob story doing quite well now and I'm 100% positive this experience changed my outlook of finances and life in general.

I feel like certain times it may be appropriate. I am not talking about the guys traveling out of state or going for trophy animals. The folks close to home tight up though I don't see a problem with taking what you need from the land to survive and provide for your family.

I have to wonder in the blanket list of names posted of violators if any of those folks were in a similar situation as we were and maybe we shouldn't automatically assume they were just out to get a set of antlers to throw on the wall.

 

[bozeman]

While I agree in theory, it may apply to 'some', I've yet to see any evidence from the cases I've payed attention to that would support it. Living in rural AL, I believe there are instances like this that most LEO and GM's are aware of a provide a wide berth to those cases.........

Good on you for not playing the victim.....good on you. (I mean that in the most honest and sincere way I can).

 

[Wrench]

Subsistence and poaching are not the same from my perspective.

Pretty tough to tell me you're unable to support yourself if you roll up in a new rig and shoot a buck/bull.....also pretty tough for me to judge someone who is obviously broke and has too much pride to stand asking for a handout, this person receives from the state either free food or the state's game.

In 1997 I was stopped by the FS for "wood poaching out of season". We were 3 days in to no power and starting to freeze up, out of wood.

I explained to the agent that rule or no rule, I'm going to make a fire because we don't have another option.

That ended the entire situation.

Is it right, not really. Was it the fed or state's fault that we didn't have enough wood to run around the clock for a month...not at all. Was I being selfish and looking for personal gain? Depends on perspective.

Location is very important. If you were in Denver and said no help was available....that's a tough sell. If it's 40 miles to the food bank, you have my attention.

 

[Adam Gibbs]

If it comes to eating versus the law, and I don't have much of anything left of value in my life, I'm going to eat.

 

[Buffalo0922]

To me….poaching is shooting that 10 point from the road, cutting his antlers and taking off.

Taking a doe to eat, in an isolated area, most likely on private land…that’s not really poaching IMHO.

Top example is morally wrong, second example is just illegal because the government says so…

 

[dtrkyman]

A friend of mines Dad who was poor and handicapped in rural Michigan basically kept himself healthy by killing a few extra deer a year if he did not tag out during season. Zero issue with those type situations as I think most have no issue with.

I think of poaching I mostly think of road hunters, thrill killers and wanton waste types. No room for any of those dirt bags!

 

[bsnedeker]

Great look for a hunting forum here...lets all talk about how great poaching is! WTF????

 

[Wvroach]

Great look for a hunting forum here...lets all talk about how great poaching is! WTF????

Who exactly said that?

 

[Crowmangler]

One thing I've learned over the years is this: you never know what someone will do in a situation until they're actually faced with it. However, unless you live in the middle of nowhere BFE, there's many options to get food without breaking the law, (gov't, food bank, church, neighbors, etc.).
It's not OK to steal someone's property & sell it to buy food or take food from his garden because you're hungry. Just because you can talk yourself into something being OK doesn't make it right.

 

[M-Wig]

Buddy of mine told me his dad killed a doe out of season back when he was a kid and they didn't have much money. That crew has been know to skirt the game laws on regular occasion though.

 

[Wvroach]

One thing I've learned over the years is this: you never know what someone will do in a situation until they're actually faced with it. However, unless you live in the middle of nowhere BFE, there's many options to get food without breaking the law, (gov't, food bank, church, neighbors, etc.).
It's not OK to steal someone's property & sell it to buy food or take food from his garden because you're hungry. Just because you can talk yourself into something being OK doesn't make it right.

Well said and I'll agree with that. Just seeing names posted of people I have to wonder if anyone was in a situation where they were faced with that decision, and maybe doesn't deserve public defamation.

My church does donate but the problem with that is you have to come forward to someone to ask for help, and a vast majority of those same people that need help don't have access to Internet/phone to do that, or are to prideful to.

I absolutely agree on not stealing to provide but game are not owned by any person and I don't view that as stealing.

 

[flatlanderhuffandpuff]

We found about a half dozen deer with the heads cut off dumped in the creek near our hunting camp a few years ago. That pissed me off. I'm sure there are locals around there that shoot deer out of season to eat. I still don't like it but I can at least understand the reason. If I were to shoot a fox that has been harassing my chickens out of season I see that much differently than shooting a big buck out of season.

Ultimately, the rules only work if everyone observes them.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Couple threads on poaching currently on here. While I'm against it 9.5 times out of 10 I have to ask do you all ever feel as though it is appropriate?

My personal opinion and I am sure it is skewed. I was in a position at one point in time where my family didn't have the money to eat if it wasn't for taking a few deer for sustenance and catching food from the river we wouldn't have eaten for those weeks.

I grew up in rural Appalachia in the poorest state in the US. My dad always worked until he ended up incarcerated for defending his family which he was eventually acquitted of, around 50k later in legal fees and job loss that left my family dead broke at the time. We lived with no running water or electricity In a 1 room cabin for a few years until they had saved enough money to move south and buy another home. Not a sob story doing quite well now and I'm 100% positive this experience changed my outlook of finances and life in general.

I feel like certain times it may be appropriate. I am not talking about the guys traveling out of state or going for trophy animals. The folks close to home tight up though I don't see a problem with taking what you need from the land to survive and provide for your family.

I have to wonder in the blanket list of names posted of violators if any of those folks were in a similar situation as we were and maybe we shouldn't automatically assume they were just out to get a set of antlers to throw on the wall.

For the Montana thread, the leader was an outfitter, so these were paid hunts.
All but 1 were from out of state.
If you are poor and hungry, you don't travel to another state and hire an outfitter.

 

[Moserkr]

To me….poaching is shooting that 10 point from the road, cutting his antlers and taking off.

Taking a doe to eat, in an isolated area, most likely on private land…that’s not really poaching IMHO.

Top example is morally wrong, second example is just illegal because the government says so…

That about sums it up. Intent to kill a trophy vs intent to feed your family are fundamentally different. Is it great for game populations that are managed based off estimates of harvest? Nope. But being rural and poor in need of food, you have to eat.

I have a client in CA who grew up in the ‘60s North of Napa, whose large family shot 5-6 deer, mostly does, a year in order to survive. Told me his dad said “shoot em in the neck so you dont waste meat!” Guy is doing extremely well now but his humble beginnings show in everything he does.

Is it still poaching? Yup. Is it morally justified and deserve leniency from the law? Absolutely.

Now throw wolves into the conversation…. When the “law” says we cant hunt them because they are “endangered”, what was the response? Something Someone Said…. I cant remember.

 

[ODB]

My mind spends most of its time in Africa, when it comes to hunting. Having said that, when I see people condemn the poorest of the poor for killing a duiker or bushpig to have their once-a-month source of protein in the same way they do a cartel of ivory poachers, I wish there were a way to snap my fingers and have them swap places for a little bit.

It’s very hard for me to condemn people for doing what they have done for thousands of years simply due to the imposition of law.

Plenty of nuance, but hard to fault people for trying to stay alive.

 

[87TT]

May have been a necessary thing a long time ago but now days there are too many welfare and assistance programs to justify it. Pride is not an excuse, period.
Wolves are something else.

 

[couesbitten]

Something Someone Said

I see what you did there.

 

[BluMtn]

Growing up in the 60's and 70's I went to school with friends that I knew they hunted and fished year around, not for sport but that is how they ate. They had large gardens in their backyard and some even trapped during the winters to make some extra money. I also know that the GW's and local LEO's knew about them and pretty much left them alone.

 

[MuleyFever]

May have been a necessary thing a long time ago but now days there are too many welfare and assistance programs to justify it. Pride is not an excuse, period.

100% agree.

 

[long hunter]

If it gets to the point where my family is scratching their asses for something to eat, food banks or not I will kill a deer, not all on here are as fortunate as we think, as to the pride thing it is real and ingrained in individuals weather you think so or not. Hunger is a powerful motivator.