The “mobile hunting” push, vs. the lack of LW/packable whitetail clothing and equipment?

[Q_Sertorius]

I find it hilarious that there was a thread on here about “saddle hunting” a while back and I thought it was about the geographic feature, not some piece of gear.

Saddle (landform) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Eship]

I find it hilarious that there was a thread on here about “saddle hunting” a while back and I thought it was about the geographic feature, not some piece of gear.

Saddle (landform) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Which in itself could be an interesting and helpful thread

 

[4090Sharps]

@Macintosh just keep preaching. I have been voicing the exact same argument for several years now. As much as I want to disagree with @KyleR1985 about the need for what you and I want, I think he is right that the market size is too small for an industry player to take on. I am in the south and seldom have the conditions to hunt much in sub freezing weather but we still have cold conditions when you pile a truck full of humidity on to temps in the 30's. There is a pack solution that I think is the optimum design for mobile whitetail hunters but as you already mentioned, no one makes it. At least not commercially yet. A good bit of the gear I use is stuff I have heavily modified to fit what I want because no one makes what I want. I have tried to have conversations with multiple Mfg's regarding saddle platforms and small stand designs and all have had less than zero interest in discussing the why or how to change the thinking. I attribute that to many of these folks being a good bit younger which means they didnt have to grow through Baker stand years to where we are now. The other issue is most are not really trying to innovate, they are just making minor tweaks on copies of the same ol thing, mostly to cut weight.

Clothing wise, I like what Asio is doing. Joe and his team are at least working at making warm and quiet whitetail gear that isnt grossly heavy. There are some design concepts that I would love to see included but arent yet. Pack wise, imo, what is needed would be built around a lumbar pack system but with a modular, removeable frame. That obviously does not exist. Yet. But there might be something you could try in the next season or two.

I’m trying hard to figure out the removable frame thing if you saw my build along here.

 

[4090Sharps]

I could very well be one of those weirdo saddle hunter lurkers

 

[nw_bearcat]

What is the difference between a backpack designed to pack a deer versus any other animal? (Elk, bear, antelope).

Extremely cold weather = warm clothes. Warm clothes = heavy, bulky, quiet clothes (synthetic insulation) OR = lighter, less bulky, noisy clothes (down insulation, synthetic fabric face). Plenty of "non-hunting" brands out there.

Which series of lightweight backpacking or western hunting gear is suitable for extremely cold weather?

One does not have to wear "hunting" clothes manufactured by "hunting" companies to successfully or comfortably hunt.
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Been a lot of Midwest deer shot by guys in worn in/worn out carharts…

 

[The_Dinkmaster]

I dont understand what's missing? Sticks/stand/bulky cold weather gear takes up a lot of space and there isn't going to be much space for meat packing regardless. Can always sandwich on load shelf but i'd look at most situations being a multiple trip affair to pack out regardless.

Like I said, Im honestly not sure there is a good solution, but Id still like to try. I think I could make one that could work for me, but cost could be an issue

 

[Swamp Fox]

I’m trying hard to figure out the removable frame thing if you saw my build along here.

Like I said, Im honestly not sure there is a good solution, but Id still like to try. I think I could make one that could work for me, but cost could be an issue

Maybe it's time to shift gears from " Why don't they?" toward throwing out some build and design ideas.

I think it's clear some folks would like improved pack/carry/clothing systems, and from reading all this I bet mobile-hunting WT companies are ceding this market to what they perceive to be a small number of individual hunters who are already willing to cobble things together from a mix of "not eastern whitetail companies." --

-Kinda a "So why bother?" scenario from the manufacturer's perspective.

I'm not all that interested in packing a deer and all my gear out in one trip for a variety of reasons ranging from hunting regulations to "it's no fun," but a pack system that could do that would catch my attention anyway.

I'm more interested in a pack system that can handle a full-sized hang-on,d c with gear and clothes for moderate to cold temps (not frigid). I'm not a big fan of climbing sticks to wander around with, but I am vastly outnumbered in the woods and on the internet --- so the pack would need a good way to carry up to six steps.

Yes, I said it: up to six. Sooner or later the 15-feet saddle saddle hunters who are having trouble killing nice bucks will grasp the benefit of hunting at 25 and will want to carry more than one or four sticks and not mess with aiders and sweat and their knee health, etc.

A quick-deploy gun bearing system would be very nice, and a bow carry system that has no possibility of marring a finish or abrading strings and cables would keep me from having nightmares.

I'll save pocket and pouch ideas for later, LOL.

 

[fatlander]

I put an 85 pound whitetail doe on my K4’s load shelf, whole, the other day. I had my saddle, rope, and jacket inside my pack. I had my one stick strapped to the outside. I could have fit camp, 5 days of food, and still had room in my pack.

What is missing from the market that my pack doesn’t do?


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[Macintosh]

I put an 85 pound whitetail doe on my K4’s load shelf, whole, the other day. I had my saddle, rope, and jacket inside my pack. I had my one stick strapped to the outside. I could have fit camp, 5 days of food, and still had room in my pack.

What is missing from the market that my pack doesn’t do?


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Maybe nothing, but that was not the topic. The topic was why specific whitrtail focused comapnies dont offer products like that.

 

[fatlander]

Maybe nothing, but that was not the topic. The topic was why specific whitrtail focused comapnies dont offer products like that.

I think it doesn’t exist, because it doesn’t need to. The overwhelming majority of whitetail hunts happen less than 100 yards from where you can get a truck or four wheeler. The overwhelming majority of whitetail hunters would go into cardiac arrest if they had to carry a 100 pound pack over rough terrain for 1+ miles. Guys that are whitetail hunting and need a dedicated pack for packing meat can find the packs already designed for that with the western hunter in mind.


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[Macintosh]

This is me slamming my head against the wall. Over and over and over and over…

 

[Swamp Fox]

Maybe nothing, but that was not the topic. The topic was why specific whitrtail focused comapnies dont offer products like that.

I don't think it's because those products wouldn't catch attention among WT hunters, whether they're "technical" or die-hard or "mobile" or not.

I think it may be because it's very hard to develop a high-quality product from scratch that has to compete with other high-quality stuff that's already on the market and has name recognition, etc., when you're not in the business of selling that kind of product in the first place.

So, steep climb to go from selling ropes and carabiners and swatches of camo fabric webbed together, to selling a performance backpack geared to what whitetail and elevated hunters like.

Same steep climb if you're a treestand company making lock-ons and platforms while eyeing the technical clothing market.

A couple of people way up the thread have made similar comments. Easier to make money if you stay in your lane.

 

[fatlander]

This is me slamming my head against the wall. Over and over and over and over…

You can buy an EXO, SG, or Kiffy and sew a LWCG or Tethrd patch on it that’ll make you feel better?


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[Macintosh]

You can buy an EXO, SG, or Kiffy and sew a LWCG or Tethrd patch on it that’ll make you feel better?


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You need to read man. This post was never about that.

Because a couple comments are bugging me, let me reiterate: I DO NOT CARE what company I get my stuff from--I am not "desiring XXX from a saddle-specific company". I am very aware that load-carrying packs exist, and I'm very aware that lightweight and breatheable warm clothing exists, and I'm aware that many WT hunters use this stuff. That was never the point of this post--I have and use the same stuff myself.

This was a question about business and marketing, not a post about gear. This post was questioning WHY companies whose entire identity and brand is built around "mobile stand hunting" DONT try to offer that equipment (ie load-carrying packs, quiet+warm outerwear that is lighter and more packable, etc), while they DO offer same-category products that I personally find inappropriate or unnecessarily heavy/bulky for the activity as I practice it. It's crystal clear to me that at least a big part of the answer is that most saddle hunters dont need (or dont think they need) that stuff, because most are simply using lightweight gear to hunt the same easily-accessible type of places where they might otherwise have had a fixed tree stand.

I agree with Eship and others on the advantages even for hunting relatively close to home, and given the sheer volume of stand-focused WT hunters out there I do think there's a business opportunity here. But it makes sense why tethrd, lattitude, etc arent all tripping over themselves to "walk their talk".

 

[fatlander]

You need to read man. This post was never about that.

It’s been said, but I’ll say it again.

The clothes that are lightweight and pack able to keep you warm on a glassing knob aren’t whitetail quiet.

Sitka, kuiu, first lite, and others make fantastic cold weather whitetail clothing already that’s packable enough while maintaining the quietness needed to kill whitetails. No treestand/saddle company is going to spend the amount of time and money it would take them to catch up to the big clothing brands for a piece of the pie in an already saturated market. The same goes for packs.

If xyz company could make better packs, or better clothes, even on par packs and clothes, without going bankrupt, they would. They can’t, so they won’t.


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[Macintosh]

It’s been said, but I’ll say it again.

The clothes that are lightweight and pack able to keep you warm on a glassing knob aren’t whitetail quiet.

Sitka, kuiu, first lite, and others make fantastic cold weather whitetail clothing already that’s packable enough while maintaining the quietness needed to kill whitetails. No treestand/saddle company is going to spend the amount of time and money it would take them to catch up to the big clothing brands for a piece of the pie in an already saturated market. The same goes for packs.

If xyz company could make better packs, or better clothes, even on par packs and clothes, without going bankrupt, they would. They can’t, so they won’t.


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That seems to be consensus #2. #1 being that not enough WT hunters actually need this stuff to make a market, which is your post #170. #2 being that its not possible to make better stuff than what already exists. #1, while there's obviously exceptions, seems to clearly be true in the big picture if this thread is any indication. #2 I think is horse hooey though--not that I think (for example) that tethrd is going to make a better pack than exo, simply that I think exo making packs designed to backpack and carry a 600lb elk may not be "perfectly refined" to never carry more than a platform and set of climbing sticks and a 150lb whitetail, while retaining maximum freedom of movement, lightest weight and lowest profile for crawling around in an alder thicket on a long day-hunt. And, we have small companies such as shoot to hunt/unknown munitions doing a collab with exo to make their own pack...there is nothing stopping a company like tethrd (or whoever) from doing the same with an apparel or pack company. Example: first lite collab with Nemo to offer a tent and tarp. #1, if true, could be a good argument for something like this not being pursued either by a single company or via a collab. But I flatly do not buy the argument that there is no improvement to be made from what already exists. And I fully believe people at all those companies would say the same, ie if their target customer was different they would use different design/materials in order to better meet a different set of priorities. Perhaps #1 is what you mean by "...without going bankrupt", ie they dont think the market is there to support the investment. But I 100% guarantee you that there's improvement to be made IF someone is willing to take the risk to make it.

 

[fatlander]

That seems to be consensus #2. #1 being that not enough WT hunters actually need this stuff to make a market. #2 being that its not possible to make better stuff than what already exists. #1 seems to clearly be true in the big picture if this thread is any indication. #2 I think is horse hooey though--not that I think (for example) that tethrd is going to make a better pack than exo, simply that I think exo making packs designed to backpack and carry a 600lb elk may not be "perfectly refined" to never carry more than a platform and set of climbing sticks and a 150lb whitetail, while retaining maximum freedom of movement, lightest weight and lowest profile. And, we have small companies such as shoot to hunt/unknown munitions doing a collab with exo to make their own pack...there is nothing stopping a company like tethrd (or whoever) from doing the same with an apparel or pack company. Example: first lite collab with Nemo to offer a tent and tarp. #1, if true, could be a good argument for something like this not being pursued either by a single company or via a collab. But I flatly do not buy the argument that there is no improvement to be made from what already exists. And I fully believe people at all those companies would say the same, ie if their target customer was different they would use different design/materials in order to better meet a different set of priorities. Perhaps #1 is what you mean by "...without going bankrupt", ie they dont think the market is there to support the investment. But I 100% guarantee you that there's improvement to be made IF someone is willing to take the risk to make it.

A heavy load is a heavy load, whether it’s elk quarters 1 at a time or an entire whitetails. No one is carrying elk out whole.

There’s no pack design that’s going to carry an entire quartered out whitetail in one trip better than anything on the market designed to carry out an entire boned out sheep/goat/mule deer in one trip or elk/moose quarters in multiple trips.

Sure, you could have a zippered pocket on the bag for everything from wind checkers to chapstick if your heart so desired; but, the frame and suspension isn’t changing.


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[KyleR1985]

There’s a tool for sale at Walmart to remove the butthole of a deer.

People buy them.

You’re telling me someone just hasn’t taken the risk to develop lighter and quieter and more packable insulating clothing for deer hunters?

They will buy it. Even if it doesn’t actually work or suit their needs.

I am firmly in the “there is no step change on the horizon” camp on this one.

 

[Macintosh]

Exactly, there is stuff like the aformentioned butthole removal tool that is good for little more than a gag gift, and there’s also PLENTY of good stuff that is unneccessary but awfully nice…most hunting equipment falls into that category. It is very clear that there is a large marketing engine behind this industry, and its very clear lots of people spend a lot of money on it. If someone built it and wanted to market that, there is absolutely a market for it, although people here seem to want to fight over that. The number of people clamoring for that category apparently is small, but the number of people who might buy it and enjoy carrying less weight and bulk around is bigger than that.

And yes, I am absolutely saying that things could be done better FOR THIS PURPOSE if any of those companies decided that was a priority. That they have not done so speaks more to what their marketing priorities are and who their true target customers are, than it does to whats possible.

 

[Swamp Fox]

Exactly, there is stuff like the aformentioned butthole removal tool that is good for little more than a gag gift ...

Clearly, sir, you have no experience with this miracle product...

But that's not important right now ...



Speaking of collaborations, I stumbled across the info that Arsenal is teaming with Eastern Woods Outdoors on a one-stick system, which I thought was interesting. Maybe the more dramatic team-ups such as @Macintosh suggests above are the way out of the box.