The Future of Idaho

[DeePow]

I genuinely appreciate a majority of the comments within this thread, there have been some interesting aspects brought up and not too many people have deviated from the topic at bay.

To me, humans need to take an introspective look at how we are impacting wildlife and this is even more drastic than predators. In Exo's interview with AZ F&G, when asked at the conclusion what F&G's message would be to the public, it revolved around habitat. Too often we are spreading into winter ranges and other areas that are vital to wildlife survival. While the shed hunting seasons are laughable, because as @TheTone brought up other recreationalists are having an impact (backcountry skiers even) but more people need to be educated. Having preventative measures in place won't deter people who purposefully break the law, but it will help inform a few ignorant folk.

With the state of politics today I hate to rely on politicians but unless you have deeper pockets than people buying up swathes of land, politicians are the ones who can preserve lands. I recently started reading Where Roads will Never Reach and it is amazing at the efforts and collaboration between our forefathers (Federal & State politicians, guides & outfitters, logging corps., conservation groups [even the Sierra Club!], etc.) who have preserved significant portions of lands. This is the root of what we need to work on because while migration corridors, road crossings are reduced side-by-side, ATV, and Jeep access are increasing unless the public steps up to demand limitations be put into place.

 

[WRO]

I genuinely appreciate a majority of the comments within this thread, there have been some interesting aspects brought up and not too many people have deviated from the topic at bay.

To me, humans need to take an introspective look at how we are impacting wildlife and this is even more drastic than predators. In Exo's interview with AZ F&G, when asked at the conclusion what F&G's message would be to the public, it revolved around habitat. Too often we are spreading into winter ranges and other areas that are vital to wildlife survival. While the shed hunting seasons are laughable, because as @TheTone brought up other recreationalists are having an impact (backcountry skiers even) but more people need to be educated. Having preventative measures in place won't deter people who purposefully break the law, but it will help inform a few ignorant folk.

With the state of politics today I hate to rely on politicians but unless you have deeper pockets than people buying up swathes of land, politicians are the ones who can preserve lands. I recently started reading Where Roads will Never Reach and it is amazing at the efforts and collaboration between our forefathers (Federal & State politicians, guides & outfitters, logging corps., conservation groups [even the Sierra Club!], etc.) who have preserved significant portions of lands. This is the root of what we need to work on because while migration corridors, road crossings are reduced side-by-side, ATV, and Jeep access are increasing unless the public steps up to demand limitations be put into place.

I disagree on comparing skiers to shed hunters. I have yet to see a skier or other winter user harass a bull or buck to pick up their antlers.

 

[Customweld]

Do yourselves a favor and take the time to listen to this podcast:

Historical Idaho Deer & Elk Tag Numbers

Robby and Toby dive into the Historical Idaho Deer & Elk Tag Numbers sold in Idaho between 2005 and 2022. This episode might surprise you.

www.rokslide.com

 

[willfrye027]

Glad this thread got back on track

 

[DeePow]

I disagree on comparing skiers to shed hunters. I have yet to see a skier or other winter user harass a bull or buck to pick up their antlers.

Totally agree. I by no means meant to put the two groups on level grounds. I personally have bumped mountain goats accidentally which sent them scurrying into terrain they may not have wanted to cross. I think this is a group whose influence could be overlooked just like the nordorkers that were referenced.

Do yourselves a favor and take the time to listen to this podcast:

Historical Idaho Deer & Elk Tag Numbers

Robby and Toby dive into the Historical Idaho Deer & Elk Tag Numbers sold in Idaho between 2005 and 2022. This episode might surprise you.

www.rokslide.com

Stoked that this came out. I’m glad that F&G are being invited to the conversations to share their findings and resources in a more digestible format

 

[Kwmountainman]

Habitat is the main driver. Drought is hard on critters as is winter. Housing developments on winter range is detrimental as is road kill. Keeping habitat connected from summer to winter range is key, as long as the habitat is available to support the deer. Harvest stats tell a story, but i'm assuming that is buck harvest. Killing of bucks doesn't really effect deer at the population level, its the survival of does and fawns, which is driven by habitat/nutrition/ escapment.

 

[IDHoundsman]

in my opinion, mule deer numbers have dropped because of,
1) Habitat loss, there are many areas in our state where they’ve built on top of historical winter range.
2) Weather, which coincides with the habitat loss. We have lost a lot of habitat due to development, which in turn limits how many deer can survive extreme winters such as 16/17 and 22/23 winters here in southeast/central Idaho.
3) Unlimited doe hunting for youth took a lot of fawn producers out of the units I hunt for years. They finally shut that down a few years ago. I understand giving youth opportunity, but not when deer numbers are falling.
4) Coyotes/Wolves. In the areas I hunt there are a ton of coyotes. Every year I see coyotes whacking deer while hunting. Always far away and close to dark. Can never get a shot. Wolves have this effect also.

I’m also a houndsmen. To the guys blaming lions, lion numbers are extremely low in the units I hunt. I spend a lot of time with my hounds in the winter and finding a lion track is tough. There are not nearly the amount of lions most guys think there are. In the years I’ve hunted them, I’ve never found a lion kill. But have found dozens of coyote killed deer. Now in places with lots of wolves, there may be more lions because houndsmen don’t want to risk losing their dogs to wolves. Wolves also kill lions, so I’m not sure what the units with high populations of wolves are like.

My thoughts of helping deer are these,
1) Improving habitat
2) Keeping doe hunts shut down
3) Add a bounty on coyotes

To help buck:doe ratios
1) Antler size restrictions for adult hunters, maybe 3pt both sides/18” minimum width? Any buck for youth. The forkies will be left to live for the youth hunters to take.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[WRO]

in my opinion, mule deer numbers have dropped because of,
1) Habitat loss, there are many areas in our state where they’ve built on top of historical winter range.
2) Weather, which coincides with the habitat loss. We have lost a lot of habitat due to development, which in turn limits how many deer can survive extreme winters such as 16/17 and 22/23 winters here in southeast/central Idaho.
3) Unlimited doe hunting for youth took a lot of fawn producers out of the units I hunt for years. They finally shut that down a few years ago. I understand giving youth opportunity, but not when deer numbers are falling.
4) Coyotes/Wolves. In the areas I hunt there are a ton of coyotes. Every year I see coyotes whacking deer while hunting. Always far away and close to dark. Can never get a shot. Wolves have this effect also.

I’m also a houndsmen. To the guys blaming lions, lion numbers are extremely low in the units I hunt. I spend a lot of time with my hounds in the winter and finding a lion track is tough. There are not nearly the amount of lions most guys think there are. In the years I’ve hunted them, I’ve never found a lion kill. But have found dozens of coyote killed deer. Now in places with lots of wolves, there may be more lions because houndsmen don’t want to risk losing their dogs to wolves. Wolves also kill lions, so I’m not sure what the units with high populations of wolves are like.

My thoughts of helping deer are these,
1) Improving habitat
2) Keeping doe hunts shut down
3) Add a bounty on coyotes

To help buck:doe ratios
1) Antler size restrictions for adult hunters, maybe 3pt both sides/18” minimum width? Any buck for youth. The forkies will be left to live for the youth hunters to take.

Just my 2 cents.

We cut a bunch of lion tracks in right outside boise if you want to come run them, I'm more than happy to look for them next fresh snow.

 

[IDHoundsman]

We cut a bunch of lion tracks in right outside boise if you want to come run them, I'm more than happy to look for them next fresh snow.

I wish I had the time man! College drains my time these days sadly.

 

[Gun&BowSD]

They don't care about the success rates or the decline in muley numbers. They only care about selling more non resident tags and $$$.

Except for that the NR tag numbers haven’t increased at all…so….

 

[Gun&BowSD]

I know Idaho already has antler restrictions, but if something drastic wanted to be done they could implement say a 5 point restriction. No less than 5 points per side. Muley, WT, elk.
Your success would nose dive, game numbers would increase, hell most people probably wouldn’t even try for a couple years.

End of the day all sorts of ideas can be thrown out. Not all of them are good.

If they really wanted to make a difference they would stop housing from being built in habitat and migration routes. But hey what do I know I’m just a dirty NR

 

[Hblazier3]

Lots of great answers once a guy sorts out the lazy, no research driven responses.

My theories.

• Habitat loss.
• SxS/ATV popularity. (I am guilty of using my ATV to access deep trail heads)
• I believe more hunters are diving deeper in and working harder, due to social media and influencers creating a trend. (Not knockin'). Resulting in pressure we never saw in certain areas.
• Locked up private ground where, especially locals, once had permission to at least use for access to embark on locked up public ground.​

What we can all do, which i believe was stated in previously mention podcast is volunteer on seed collecting and habitat construction, and attend any fish and game seminars to further educate ourselves and our fellow hunters, who the majority is pretty emotional, in turn being close minded.

I just discovered this group and its podcast, I align with most of what Robby says. Seems like a pretty good dude for being East Idaho boy!

 

[littlebigtine]

Antler point restrictions do not work. Limited entry does not work. Predators play a role similar to hunting, but the impact is minor compared to habitat loss and bad weather. The deer will come back, we just need to focus on the things that matter: protecting migration corridors and winter range, invasive species/weed management, supporting/volunteering for non-profits/politicians that protect wild places/habitat (maga boy does not), and keep punching predator tags. Keep Idaho General

I might make shirts

 

[Customweld]

Antler point restrictions do not work. Limited entry does not work. Predators play a role similar to hunting, but the impact is minor compared to habitat loss and bad weather. The deer will come back, we just need to focus on the things that matter: protecting migration corridors and winter range, invasive species/weed management, supporting/volunteering for non-profits/politicians that protect wild places/habitat (maga boy does not), and keep punching predator tags. Keep Idaho General

I might make shirts

I’m in for one!

 

[KurtR]

Antler point restrictions do not work. Limited entry does not work. Predators play a role similar to hunting, but the impact is minor compared to habitat loss and bad weather. The deer will come back, we just need to focus on the things that matter: protecting migration corridors and winter range, invasive species/weed management, supporting/volunteering for non-profits/politicians that protect wild places/habitat (maga boy does not), and keep punching predator tags. Keep Idaho General

I might make shirts

Do solar farms make good deer habitat? Asking for my ice cream eating friend?

 

[littlebigtine]

Do solar farms make good deer habitat? Asking for my ice cream eating friend?

Solar farms don’t and neither do oil fields. I love the idea of energy independence but we export about 50% of our total crude oil use which is extravagant to begin with. We will continue to import oil until it is cheaper to lift and use the homegrown stuff. Im not sure what your point is but I am leery of continuing to sell off oil leases on public land when it has little effect on the price of oil and a disastrous effect on wildlife and habitat. I don’t drive a Tesla btw lol but I like ice cream? Rocky road preferably..?

 

[ddowning]

I hear you loud and clear, I am of the opinion that because of the size of the unit and the way the migration works it isn’t the worst management strategy. Might not be the best but don’t you think that resident hunters self regulate a bit a go elsewhere when it’s that “bad”. I hunt a unit in central idaho where a lot of those Boise guys end up at and usually what I hear from them is the only difference between unit a and unit b they see(as far as the quality of hunting) is just a little less fanfare.

Do you think that the buck to doe ratio is so low that the reproduction potential of the herd is limited and that is the driving factor towards the poor buck recruitment? I know IDFG is doing a central idaho deer survey this year which I believe is the first time since 2018? I’d suspect that the herd is still about 15000 strong with 1-1.5 bucks to 10 does, which according to the biologist is adequate for good recruitment. I am not necessarily convinced. I do agree that the late archery feels brutally out of balance…I have also been wondering if there are genetic implications when competition between males is practically non-existent. Also maybe those young bucks are rutting a bit too hard and don’t make it through winter as a consequence.lol I couldn’t help myself.
No doubt this past season was tough all over south-central-eastern Idaho.

I know nothing about Mule deer, but with whitetail in the midwest, when we get past 4 does per buck we see it as a problem. When we can get it to be 1:2 or better it is very good. The flip side is we have VERY high deer densities, so focusing on a balanced set ratio is actually keeping the herd from being overpopulated vs keeping it from recovering.

 

[littlebigtine]

I know nothing about Mule deer, but with whitetail in the midwest, when we get past 4 does per buck we see it as a problem. When we can get it to be 1:2 or better it is very good. The flip side is we have VERY high deer densities, so focusing on a balanced set ratio is actually keeping the herd from being overpopulated vs keeping it from recovering.

I honestly am not sure. IDFG did its aerial survey of central idaho and the numbers they came up with were not significantly different then in years past. Lower but not as dire as most residents seemed to believe. They seem to be comfortable with the ratio

F&G biologists complete herd composition surveys in Southwest Idaho

Overall, fawn ratios were similar to the long term average in each DAU. Because of the mild winter, bucks were observed at unusually high elevations this year, near the tops of many of the subunits that were surveyed. This suggests there were likely bucks that were not observed because they were...

idfg.idaho.gov

 

[idelkslayer]

I honestly am not sure. IDFG did its aerial survey of central idaho and the numbers they came up with were not significantly different then in years past. Lower but not as dire as most residents seemed to believe. They seem to be comfortable with the ratio

F&G biologists complete herd composition surveys in Southwest Idaho

Overall, fawn ratios were similar to the long term average in each DAU. Because of the mild winter, bucks were observed at unusually high elevations this year, near the tops of many of the subunits that were surveyed. This suggests there were likely bucks that were not observed because they were...

idfg.idaho.gov

Bear in mind that winter population surveys are after hunting season. If a wintering population has 20:100 bucks to does, that means that prior to the hunting season the ratio could be much higher; maybe even 30:100 or 40:100 depending on the harvest characteristics of a particular area.

 

[WRO]

I know Idaho already has antler restrictions, but if something drastic wanted to be done they could implement say a 5 point restriction. No less than 5 points per side. Muley, WT, elk.
Your success would nose dive, game numbers would increase, hell most people probably wouldn’t even try for a couple years.

End of the day all sorts of ideas can be thrown out. Not all of them are good.

If they really wanted to make a difference they would stop housing from being built in habitat and migration routes. But hey what do I know I’m just a dirty NR

All you'll end up with is a bunch of cull bucks if you do that. Age is what matters most, not antler points.