The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

[Texasbuckeye]

Best post I’ve seen the whole thread, thank you

The next question is what will you do with this information ?
If you truly believe there is a God of Heaven and Jesus was a real person, there is a higher expectation of you as was mentioned above by dylan. The mystery of all this is tough, and i am not claiming i have all the answers, as i said before, no human does. But we do have to be mindful of the word of God Himself.

Jesus specifically said:

““Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭21‬-‭23‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lo | New Living Translation (NLT) |

“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lo

bible.com

There is some nuance there as well, and maybe He is saying people aho did signs in His name but under the disguise of another lord, but what can be lost and what can be gained is so impactful.

Remember, God loves you and wants you. But we still have the choice to scorn love, if there is a different attraction that takes your attention away from the Almighty.

 

[Plainsman79]

The next question is what will you do with this information ?
If you truly believe there is a God of Heaven and Jesus was a real person, there is a higher expectation of you as was mentioned above by dylan. The mystery of all this is tough, and i am not claiming i have all the answers, as i said before, no human does. But we do have to be mindful of the word of God Himself.

Jesus specifically said:

““Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭21‬-‭23‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lo | New Living Translation (NLT) |

“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lo

bible.com

There is some nuance there as well, and maybe He is saying people aho did signs in His name but under the disguise of another lord, but what can be lost and what can be gained is so impactful.

Remember, God loves you and wants you. But we still have the choice to scorn love, if there is a different attraction that takes your attention away from the Almighty.

So that leaves a question? What is the will of God for all of us?

It’s found in St. Paul’s first letter to the Thessalonians chapter 5 verses 16-18.

1 Thessalonians 5​

​

The Day of the Lord​

5 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

Final Instructions​

12Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, to acknowledge those who work hard among you, who care for you in the Lord and who admonish you.13Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other. 14And we urge you, brothers and sisters, warn those who are idle and disruptive, encourage the disheartened, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always strive to do what is good for each other and for everyone else.

16Rejoice always, 17pray continually, 18give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.

19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20Do not treat prophecies with contempt 21but test them all; hold on to what is good, 22reject every kind of evil.

23May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it.

25Brothers and sisters, pray for us. 26Greet all God’s people with a holy kiss. 27I charge you before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers and sisters.

28The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you

 

[Beagle1]

Would it not be the beginning of wisdom to fear an all powerful God who's mercy we are eternally reliant on?

Each faith appeals to fear as “the beginning of wisdom.” But since these religions contradict each other, they can’t all be right. If fear alone is the test, then every religion wins.

Fear can certainly produce obedience, but obedience isn’t the same as understanding. A subject may fear a tyrant’s punishment and act accordingly, but that doesn’t mean the tyrant’s rule is wise. A mind motivated by fear is more likely to accept whatever narrative keeps it safe rather than honestly weigh competing claims. That’s not a genuine search for the truth, it’s survival instinct.

 

[Beagle1]

Wow, most of that is a "stretch" wider than the Grand Canyon (especially your gravity parody). If you were to be 100% honest, you'd acknowledge that there have been many, many people start out to refute the Bible based on whatever means necessary, only to find they cannot because the "facts" as you say, are not there and never have been.

When you say that my “gravity parody” is a stretch, I think you may have misunderstood the point. The comparison isn’t meant to claim gravity and God are the same type of claim, it’s to show what falsifiability is. Gravity is considered true not because it’s beyond testing, but because it can be tested, and it has survived countless attempts to disprove it. That’s why it’s powerful knowledge, it is exposed to risk, and it keeps holding up.

But when someone says “Christianity can’t be falsified,” that isn’t a strength, it’s a way of saying it’s immune to testing. That’s what makes it different from scientific truths or even historical claims that can be examined against evidence.

As for the claim that “many people set out to disprove the Bible and failed,” I think that’s selective cherry picking. It’s true that some former skeptics became Christians. But many others examined the Bible closely and left their faith because of the contradictions, historical issues, or moral problems they couldn’t reconcile. Both outcomes happen.

Also saying the Bible hasn’t been disproven is overstated. It depends on what part of the Bible we’re talking about. Events like a global flood or the Israelites’ desert wanderings lack corroboration and conflict with what archaeology shows. That doesn’t mean every word is disproven but it does mean not every claim stands up. The pattern has been that where the Bible makes unfalsifiable or theological claims, those remain safe; but where it makes concrete historical claims, they can be checked, and sometimes they don’t match the evidence. But Christianity is in good company, many other religions do the same thing.

So if Christianity protects itself the same way other religions do then what reasons are there to say it is uniquely true.

 

[Shortschaf]

Each faith appeals to fear as “the beginning of wisdom.” But since these religions contradict each other, they can’t all be right. If fear alone is the test, then every religion wins.

Fear can certainly produce obedience, but obedience isn’t the same as understanding. A subject may fear a tyrant’s punishment and act accordingly, but that doesn’t mean the tyrant’s rule is wise. A mind motivated by fear is more likely to accept whatever narrative keeps it safe rather than honestly weigh competing claims. That’s not a genuine search for the truth, it’s survival instinct.

This is why fear is labeled the beginning of wisdom--our basest emotion and only a starting point. Call it an attention getter. Out of a survival instinct, we are compelled to dig deeper to determine if our fear is justified. And for so many Christians, the deeper we dig the more our motivation for obedience evolves from fear to faith.

It was really just a yes or no question though about any generic all powerful God.
An attempt to find even a morsel of common ground where your response is not just a negative spiral of "yeah but"'s

Believe it or not, we know the "yeah but"'s, and still arrive at Christ in conclusion

 

[Texasbuckeye]

Many NDErs experience a peaceful understanding when they stand in the presence of God. With God, there is no fear, again as expressed by NDErs. Fear is a control mechanism put in place by the lords and agents of the lords that bow to God, and they know the only way to manipulate humankind is to speak of things not 100% true and try to convince us of lies. This is evidenced in the Bible as Adam and Eve felt shame and were afraid after they fell under the deception of the serpent being.

As humans on earth, we can not begin to comprehend the vastness and completeness of God. Our brains are quite literally unable, and this is again evidenced by the fact that most NDErs come back and have no good way to communicate the things they see or the feelings they feel.

This phenomenon of NDErs describing the God of the Bible is consistent across all the world and all faiths, and even atheists who experience NDE; there is but one I AM.

I get that some people want to fully understand something before they will "believe" in it. But take heart, even the humans Jesus spent years with on earth did not understand fully. It is human nature to want proof, but that is also a deception the lords and agents of lords perpetrate on us. We have enough proof out there, we just have to have eyes to see it and ears to hear it and not have those senses clogged up by other noise or distraction. He is out there, searching, seeking for YOU!

 

[Beagle1]

I have been gone from fhis thread for a bit, and some of you are probably ok with that, but catching up on it really highlights a couple things:

1. A lot of straw man arguments are put out by nonbelievers trying to trip up believers. Seems there is a lot of hurt or frustration within those straw men arguments.

2. Certain people argue the same thing all the time. Nothing original and it is like banging your head against the wall. Its tiring and ignoring certain people and their posts may make this thread even better.

3. There is no convincing the non-believer of the actuality of God nor the wisdom within the Bible. It really is such an easy thing to see when looking at the thread as a whole.

4. Keep up the good fight. I do feel this thread is spiritual warfare being played out for us to see. There is no other reason for all the non-believers to be on here, other than they were drawn in by spiritual powers that align against the Lord of Lords.

“Why are your clothes so red, as if you have been treading out grapes? “I have been treading the winepress alone; no one was there to help me. In my anger I have trampled my enemies as if they were grapes. In my fury I have trampled my foes. Their blood has stained my clothes.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭63‬:‭2‬-‭3‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Isaiah 63:2-3 Why are your clothes so red, as if you have been treading out grapes? “I have been treading the winepress alone; no one was there to help me. In my anger I have trampled my enemies as if they were gr | New Living Translation (NLT) | Do

Why are your clothes so red, as if you have been treading out grapes? “I have been treading the winepress alone; no one was there to help me. In my anger I have trampled my enemies as if they were gr

bible.com

When believers say skeptics are “just making straw man arguments,” it often functions less as a defense and more as a dismissal. Too often, skeptics aren’t misrepresenting, they’re quoting scripture, pointing out contradictions, or citing scholarship. If those arguments sting, maybe it’s because they land closer than believers admit.

Yes, arguments repeat but that’s because the issues remain unresolved. Christians also recycle the same claims (prophecy, eyewitnesses, “changed lives”) across centuries. Repetition doesn’t mean weakness; it means the core disputes are still alive.

If nothing could ever convince a believer, then it’s a closed system, not open inquiry. Most skeptics can name what would convince them (a public miracle, consistent archaeology, etc.). Can believers name anything that would convince them otherwise?

Framing disagreement as “spiritual warfare” shields belief from critique. If someone agrees, it’s God; if they disagree, it’s Satan. That’s a narrative loop. And frankly, it’s not a very Christian way to treat people engaging in good faith.

Your passage is about God crushing enemies. Applying it to skeptics suggests critics aren’t seen as humans reasoning in good faith, but as enemies to be destroyed. Is that the moral moral high ground you want to stand on.

 

[Beagle1]

This is why fear is labeled the beginning of wisdom--our basest emotion and only a starting point. Call it an attention getter. Out of a survival instinct, we are compelled to dig deeper to determine if our fear is justified. And for so many Christians, the deeper we dig the more our motivation for obedience evolves from fear to faith.

It was really just a yes or no question though about any generic all powerful God.
An attempt to find even a morsel of common ground where your response is not just a negative spiral of "yeah but"'s

Believe it or not, we know the "yeah but"'s, and still arrive at Christ in conclusion

Fear can be the “beginning of wisdom,” but it will not lead to wisdom if it never grows beyond fear. People fear demons, curses, and superstitions too but those fears are not reliable guides to truth.

As for the “generic all-powerful God” question, it may seem to you like a fair attempt at common ground. But in practice, the moment it’s asked, the discussion always rushes to a very specific conclusion: Christ. The “yes or no” isn’t really neutral; it’s framed to extract a predetermined answer. In good conscience, I can’t play along with that kind of common ground.

And when you say “we know the yeah-but’s and still arrive at Christ,” that’s revealing. It shows the counterarguments are acknowledged but not actually wrestled with. The objections don’t lack weight, it’s just that the conclusion has already been chosen. That may be faith, but it isn’t inquiry.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

@Beagle1 I have addressed the same critique of my post you quoted a couple above, I am not calling all skepticism or even debate or discussion as a straw man argument. I gave a specific post as a reference to what I talking about (#1390 in case you are interested in seeing what I am referring to as a straw man), and there are several instances of such things through this thread.

The ability to read and comprehend without making assumptions about what is being said is critical to be able to fully grasp the concepts being discussed. This post of yours above is out of the ordinary of your typical. Do better.

And saying repetition means a debate is alive is sort of like saying beating your head against the stone is healthy. I prefer to make a point, and if able, challenge the counterpoint. When it becomes obvious the challenge is simply the same thing rehashed time and time again, I move on. I am not telling anyone else to do the same, I have suggested it, but as we have seen many times in this thread, we all have free will to do as we choose.

And you totally missed the point of my scripture quote. The purpose was to show Jesus fought/fights enemies, not just one enemy. It has nothing to do with humankind or skeptics of the faith. It has everything to do with spiritual enemies of God. Again, reading comprehension is helpful. Do better.

 

[Bugger]

The next question is what will you do with this information ?
If you truly believe there is a God of Heaven and Jesus was a real person, there is a higher expectation of you as was mentioned above by dylan.

I’m firmly in the agnostic category. As Beagle said, it would take a personal event or evidence that would convince me of creation, then more searching to find the source of that. I would love to know the answers just as much as anyone else, but I will not color my lenses in the process. Experiences by others are irrelevant. All paths to spiritual enlightenment describe an inner conscience, euphoria, and hallucinations as they are natural processes in the body.

To each their own as long as there is no harm done in the process.

 

[Phaseolus]

Is there a way to block a single thread? Asking for a friend

 

[Jason Snyder]

““Pay attention, O Jacob, for you are my servant, O Israel. I, the Lord, made you, and I will not forget you. I have swept away your sins like a cloud. I have scattered your offenses like the morning mist. Oh, return to me, for I have paid the price to set you free.””
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭44‬:‭21‬-‭22‬ ‭NLT‬‬

 

[Texasbuckeye]

Is there a way to block a single thread? Asking for a friend

Without being too crass, its like a radio station. If you don't like the music, just change the channel.

 

[Shortschaf]

And when you say “we know the yeah-but’s and still arrive at Christ,” that’s revealing. It shows the counterarguments are acknowledged but not actually wrestled with. The objections don’t lack weight, it’s just that the conclusion has already been chosen. That may be faith, but it isn’t inquiry.

Let's not pretend to know what the other has or hasn't wrestled with. We do not know eachother.
And no, it wasn't a trick question. I was not attempting to coerce you into saying anything. It was a face value question