The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

[Bugger]

Bugger, for the sake of discussion let's just assume what you just said is true. My question would be what is your excuse for "knowing", yet still rejecting God's grace for you?

Many reasons similar to others on here. As a kid in the church I felt like the only one who got the placebo in the trial. My questions outweigh my ability to believe in one religion over any another.

However, with regards to your last post specifically....Paul asserts that all people have the opportunity to “know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them” (Romans 1:19, NLT). God has revealed Himself with such breathtaking clarity through the visible world He created that people have no excuse for not knowing Him or believing in Him. They only have themselves to blame for rejecting the God of creation.

We may be at odds over the interpretation of that verse. Just a few lines up it refers to him revealing the gospel to the Romans, then using the earth as evidence. Not necessarily that they should have already concluded the message previously.

17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last.

 

[Plainsman79]

I am reading “imagine heaven” right now and it is a fascinating read, probably changing a little bit of the dogma in ly mind that surrounds the whole protestant line of “say a prayer and you will be in heaven” type stuff, but i am not at the end yet (literally or figuratively) so my mind is still open to possibles that i have not considered and are not outside of or in conflict with the Bible.

One thing i heard this weekend that was interesting and put a different twist on things was the Bible was written for us, but we have to look at it through a christocentric viewpoint, not an anthropormorphic view point. Meaning we cant read it as if people are the center of the story. It has always been about Jesus and God and their plan to redeem human kind back to fellowship with them. So while the Bible was written for us, there is a lot of stuff going on in between the lines that we do not get a full picture of in a casual reading of the Bible. Really opens the eyes to see some of the crazy spiritual stuff that has gone on and is still going on.

Just one example: we always consider satan the enemy of God. But clearly in Isaiah 63 it talks about how Jesus tramples His enemies (plural) and no one came to His aid, meaning there are multiple principalities (lords) that were all trying to over throw the ability of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit ability to redeem human kind. This is not taught well, and this gives rise to the possibility that all of the other gods that were spoken/written about in history may have actually existed. But we know how the story ends, thats the good news.

In Burke’s book, he does say none of the NDEs experienced things taught in buddhism or hinduism, people of those faiths and belief systems still experienced the God the Bible talks about, all loving full of light. The biblical descriptions of Yahweh are consistent time and time again in NDE’s across the world.

Sorry this is long winded.

No need to apologize buckeye. I enjoy reading your discussions on here. Glad to have to back. Some of your responses on here have help me grow in my own faith.

Without a doubt the mystery of faith and the more anyone opens their heart and soul to Him, the more that will be revealed. It’s truly an incredible journey full of ups and downs.

I don’t know if the human eye or mind would want to see the spiritual battles that are happening around us. It would probably terrify us all to death. Just yesterday, my wife was telling me a story about how her best friend witnessed a demon coming out of another woman during prayer and eventually an exorcism in front of a large crowd at Catholic conference. Afterwards the priest told everyone that possessed people are drawn to these events and it’s not all that uncommon for this to happen. This is just 1 instance coming from a very credible source. These types of things are happening all around us. How is this different than when the Apostles removed demons? It’s not.

Glad you’re enjoying the book!

 

[Bugger]

When civilizations worshipped man made “gods” that is when God revealed his wrath on them all throughout the Old Testament. It goes back to post #1 of this thread.

I appreciate the response, and yes in the timeline/location of the Bible that fits within their worldview. Is it assumed that was happening all over the planet as well? Why would god create civilizations on other continents and then not give them the same enlightenment that was given to those in the Middle East?

 

[Jason Snyder]

Just in the last few pages there's been people talking about blocking folks, ignoring threads etc etc when in reality the thread has been civil.

I missed the stuff about blocking people. Pretty sure the ignoring threads requests have come from anti-Christian folks.

It has been pretty civil, although it was sad to see insults and name calling come into play.

Also, I should have clarified further. My comment about not shooting the messenger was not specifically addressed to you. It was more meant as a generality.

When non-believers are told the only way through salvation is through Jesus, it’s easy to react defensively and ask questions about this to believers. And, vice versa, it’s easy for believers to get defensive when there are questions they cannot answer, or have not answered but it does not affect their belief.

 

[go_deep]

Here is a 9 minute video from Father Mike Schmitz explaining do you go to hell if you've never heard of Jesus?
You have to listen to the entire video for it to make sense.

 

[Shortschaf]

I appreciate the response, and yes in the timeline/location of the Bible that fits within their worldview. Is it assumed that was happening all over the planet as well? Why would god create civilizations on other continents and then not give them the same enlightenment that was given to those in the Middle East?

In it's simplest form, if revelation happens at all, it has to happen at some time, and to someone. Why it didn't happen to others or at some other time is only known for certain by God.

Comments on the timing:
As for old testement revelation, how do we know God did not attempt to do so with all nations, and simply was not received(?)

God is timeless, so the idea of before Christ and after Christ is strictly a human one.
Plus, Christ would not have been received well or possibly at all by our prehistoric selves, who were effectively bands of savages. "Prehistory" itself is defined as being before written history. So Christ's arrival needed to happen after human prehistory in order for the message to effectively carry into the future.

Comments on "why the Hebrews?"
As for why God chose the Hebrews as his subjects for revelation, some say it is because they were a good example of an insignificant nation. If God's revelation went to an already great nation (like Egypt, Greece, chinese dynasties, etc), their success in history would have been written off as nothing special.
In contrast--the Hebrew nation growing as powerful as it did, from such an insignificant beginning, was a powerful showcase of who the Lord is.


These are not my own personally dreamt up thoughts, but really an honest attempt at summarizing what I have learned from the Catholic church.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

I appreciate the response, and yes in the timeline/location of the Bible that fits within their worldview. Is it assumed that was happening all over the planet as well? Why would god create civilizations on other continents and then not give them the same enlightenment that was given to those in the Middle East?

That is where you are wrong. Genesis 1 is the creation story where God created man and woman and told them to be fruitful and multiply, and reign over the earth, and the thing you missed is He said it to them. He was among them. He didn't need to bring some sort of special revelation to all the peoples, because He was there.

What happens as time goes on is the other beings present, satan for one, but fallen angels among other beings, also are present, and soon the people are becoming wicked and doing evil because they are presented with temptation from these other beings... the Bible specifically states the fallen angels breed with the daughters of man, and create beings who are known in history as heroes. These other beings are the wall between people and God. As time goes on, God sees the world is full of wickedness, all of creation was wicked, except for Noah. So God instructs Noah to build an Ark, but there is no mention of other beings and their ability to see what is happening, and the story of Gilgamesh is a story about a half human half fallen angel and his family in the flood, and there are many other stories of such beings being saved form the flood. But the only human saved was Noah. Once the flood recedes, Noah and his sons and daughters re-populate the earth, but there are also beings present that are acting as agents of the other lords who promote wickedness and stand between human kind and God. Since God made a covenant that He would no longer destroy all of the earth, He chose a specific people to be His chosen nation, and it started with Abraham. All through the Bible we read story after story about how God protects His people from other groups being misled or actually even led by beings that are descendent from fallen angels. The giant Goliath is one such example. The story of the Bible is one of God's redemption of human kind and the drawing near to humans to spend eternity back in heaven with God.

After Jesus came and died, the call from the chosen nation of Israel became a call to all nations of the world, the gentiles. So it is false to assume the people of the earth did not receive some special enlightenment to God. In the beginning, God was among the people. The people were just deceived and chose to see and follow other lords that made things seem a better pathway for human kind.

However, the title of Jesus is not just King of kings, it is also Lord of lords. He has the final say. And that is also why no lord dares challenge Jesus/God/HolySpirirt to His face, they always go around and try to deceive humans into thinking God is not loving, or God doesn't exist, or whatever other deception they have used in the past. They use proxy agents to try to act on God, to try and usurp His glory. But the end is already written. We know how the story ends.

 

[ianpadron]

In it's simplest form, if revelation happens at all, it has to happen at some time, and to someone. Why it didn't happen to others or at some other time is only known for certain by God.

Comments on the timing:
As for old testement revelation, how do we know God did not attempt to do so with all nations, and simply was not received(?)

God is timeless, so the idea of before Christ and after Christ is strictly a human one.
Plus, Christ would not have been received well or possibly at all by our prehistoric selves, who were effectively bands of savages. "Prehistory" itself is defined as being before written history. So Christ's arrival needed to happen after human prehistory in order for the message to effectively carry into the future.

Comments on "why isreal?"
As for why God chose Isreal as his subjects for revelation, some say it is because they were a good example of an insignificant nation. If God's revelation went to an already great nation (like Egypt, Greece, chinese dynasties, etc), their success in history would have been written off as nothing special.
In contrast--the Jewish nation growing as powerful as it did, from such an insignificant beginning, was a powerful showcase of who the Lord is.


These are not my own personally dreamt up thoughts, but really an honest attempt at summarizing what I have learned from the Catholic church.

The take on "Why Israel?" is not accurate.

In Genesis, Noah was chosen specifically by God to re-seed humanity as he was a righteous man living in a totally corrupted world. His descendants led to Abraham through Noah's son Shem.

Israel was not a thing/place/idea until God made it so, as a sign of his covenant to Abraham, a direct descendant of Noah and his purity.

 

[Shortschaf]

The take on "Why Israel?" is not accurate.

In Genesis, Noah was chosen specifically by God to re-seed humanity as he was a righteous man living in a totally corrupted world. His descendants led to Abraham through Noah's son Shem.

Israel was not a thing/place/idea until God made it so, as a sign of his covenant to Abraham, a direct descendant of Noah and his purity.

I can edit Isreal with Hebrew for clarity. I crudely lumped Abraham in with Isreal

 

[Plainsman79]

Here is a 9 minute video from Father Mike Schmitz explaining do you go to hell if you've never heard of Jesus?
You have to listen to the entire video for it to make sense.

This is not by coincidence you found this. Father Mike is awesome.

@Bugger and @thinhorn_AK please give it a watch. It talks about some of the exact issues you asked about.

 

[Bugger]

Once the flood recedes, Noah and his sons and daughters re-populate the earth

Modern science, archaeology, and unbroken unique racial lineages have solid counter-arguments against a worldwide flood to the point that even the catholic church leaves it open to “possibly the known world at the time” interpretation. That’s where my question is based. Everything hinges on the fact that the Bible was written to just the population as they knew it, and the way it’s written strongly suggests that they (including Jesus) thought they were the only ones in existence.

After Jesus came and died, the call from the chosen nation of Israel became a call to all nations of the world, the gentiles. So it is false to assume the people of the earth did not receive some special enlightenment to God.

But it isn’t strange that such an epic event wasn’t documented anywhere else on earth?

 

[Shortschaf]

But it isn’t strange that such an epic event wasn’t documented anywhere else on earth?

The epic event of Christianity is in every corner of the earth.
It did not happen overnight, no

 

[Bugger]

This is not by coincidence you found this. Father Mike is awesome.

@Bugger and @thinhorn_AK please give it a watch. It talks about some of the exact issues you asked about.

How does that align with god being everywhere all the time? He can be apparently incredibly present in some people’s lives yet entirely absent in others that he created and has complete control of? A god unbound by time and space should have no trouble leveling influence across the worlds geography, yet the border lines are clearly drawn. I just can’t jive with the idea that most of the world’s historic and current population are essentially NPC’s subject to whatever rules god didn’t explain to humanity.

I did watch the video, 5:50 is an interesting position that a Muslim can be devout enough to their god and cultural knowledge of good that they could get into heaven.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

How does that align with god being everywhere all the time? He can be apparently incredibly present in some people’s lives yet entirely absent in others that he created and has complete control of? A god unbound by time and space should have no trouble leveling influence across the worlds geography, yet the border lines are clearly drawn. I just can’t jive with the idea that most of the world’s historic and current population are essentially NPC’s subject to whatever rules god didn’t explain to humanity.

I did watch the video, 5:50 is an interesting position that a Muslim can be devout enough to their god and cultural knowledge of good that they could get into heaven.

As has been mentioned time and time again in multiple posts, the path to heaven and eternity is strictly up to God. How He wants to deal with people is entirely on Him, and us mere humans will have ZERO basis for any decision He makes regarding letting someone into heaven. This is not a difficult concept to understand, and the fact is the Bible while infallible and complete for us, it is possible it leavies stuff out because we could not ever understand it. The reality is Jesus said the sinner next to him on the cross will be in heaven with Him, so who is to say the same attitude isn't given to everyone even in the face of seeing god Himself?

So let me ask, what is the hang up with this? Are you so concerned there IS an all-loving, all-consuming God out there and you aren't feeling it, or you don't appreciate the path Jesus said we have to take, or is it truly about genuine concern for people you will never meet that "could" be left out of eternity because they chose the wrong path or didn't even know about Jesus (seemingly because you 'love' them more than an all-loving God?)

I am genuinely curious why you are driving this point so hard...is it personal or is it simply to be a bugger?

 

[Bugger]

So let me ask, what is the hang up with this? Are you so concerned there IS an all-loving, all-consuming God out there and you aren't feeling it, or you don't appreciate the path Jesus said we have to take, or is it truly about genuine concern for people you will never meet that "could" be left out of eternity because they chose the wrong path or didn't even know about Jesus (seemingly because you 'love' them more than an all-loving God?)

I am genuinely curious why you are driving this point so hard...is it personal or is it simply to be a bugger?

Genuine curiosity. They’re questions, not attacks. Even the pastor in the video said he gets those questions often.

 

[Cowbell]

How does that align with god being everywhere all the time? He can be apparently incredibly present in some people’s lives yet entirely absent in others that he created and has complete control of? A god unbound by time and space should have no trouble leveling influence across the worlds geography, yet the border lines are clearly drawn. I just can’t jive with the idea that most of the world’s historic and current population are essentially NPC’s subject to whatever rules god didn’t explain to humanity.

I did watch the video, 5:50 is an interesting position that a Muslim can be devout enough to their god and cultural knowledge of good that they could get into heaven.

5:50 is interesting because it isn't biblically accurate. That's quite a stretch to make by the gentleman in the video just like him saying that Jesus left them the "Catholic Church"

 

[Texasbuckeye]

Genuine curiosity. They’re questions, not attacks. Even the pastor in the video said he gets those questions often.

I understand. It is a common enough question but it is a common enough answer. Yes, there are hardline christians that will say unless you are baptized going face forward, you are not going to heaven. And some that say you must say a prayer a certain way in order to go to heaven. The language of some christians is exhausting, and many of those same christians live a life far from what Jesus lived or asked anyone to live, lives that Jesus even chastised and mocked. This type of pure legalism, meaning the manner in which something is done is as important as the thing done, is almost a 180 degree viewpoint from what Jesus preached and lived. He wanted relationship, compassion, and love to rule the day. He said this is the way the Father wants things too.

So the genuine answer to your question is this: we humans really do not know the answer. We can think we do, or we can act like we do, but the bottom line is none of us are God and none of us can experience anything like the love God has for each and every one of us. He chases after us. He seeks us when we are lost, and celebrates when He finds us. In Burkes book on NDEs, it even seems He gives some people the chance while right in front of Him to choose love. There is enough mystery surrounding the path to eternity that most Christians simply say they know a path and it is what Jesus taught.

While Jesus said "no one will come to the Father except through me" it is quite possible He was simply referring to Him being the blood sacrifice God demands to redeem sin, and since Jesus did that, we are all welcome if we choose....and when that choice is made is totally up to God. Too many people get caught up in the "pre-death" vs "post-death" as if it means they won't get to heaven if someone else does. Such nonsense. Any true follower of Jesus would rejoice if someone who died and was not a believer turned into one in the last hour of their life, the last minute, or in the first period of the afterlife when they meet God.

Does this mean I do not believe in hell or that people will be there? I 100% believe in the place Jesus referred to as the fiery pit (some call this hell, others the pit prison) where there is eternal torment and gnashing of teeth, and that there are people there, or at least beings. We have to be very careful to say something that is not in line with what Scripture says, as I believe the Bible is infallible and also without contradiction. So if Jesus said something, it is true. But there might be nuance to what is written and sometimes what is written is not the full extent of the story, because maybe we humankind simply cannot begin to grasp or understand the reality of what is being said or written. I do not think any human should say any other human is going to hell though. It is not our place to judge. That is solely God/Jesus/Holy Spirit place to judge.

Does that help at all?


Edit for clarity: I do not read the Bible and say it is nuanced and open to interpretation by each individual. I believe there are some things that are doctrinal and not open to interpretation, but at the same time some things are taken by humans for humanistic purposes (fear, money, membership roles) and spun out of what the text actually says to manipulate people. We have be very wise and read the Bible in context of the story it tells. And taking a single verse or two and quoting those only is very ripe for mainpulative practice. I always read the chapter, and sometimes more, which contain the verses quoted to get the context of the greater picture being told by those verses.

 

[Bugger]

I understand. It is a common enough question but it is a common enough answer. Yes, there are hardline christians that will say unless you are baptized going face forward, you are not going to heaven. And some that say you must say a prayer a certain way in order to go to heaven. The language of some christians is exhausting, and many of those same christians live a life far from what Jesus lived or asked anyone to live, lives that Jesus even chastised and mocked. This type of pure legalism, meaning the manner in which something is done is as important as the thing done, is almost a 180 degree viewpoint from what Jesus preached and lived. He wanted relationship, compassion, and love to rule the day. He said this is the way the Father wants things too.

So the genuine answer to your question is this: we humans really do not know the answer. We can think we do, or we can act like we do, but the bottom line is none of us are God and none of us can experience anything like the love God has for each and every one of us. He chases after us. He seeks us when we are lost, and celebrates when He finds us. In Burkes book on NDEs, it even seems He gives some people the chance while right in front of Him to choose love. There is enough mystery surrounding the path to eternity that most Christians simply say they know a path and it is what Jesus taught.

While Jesus said "no one will come to the Father except through me" it is quite possible He was simply referring to Him being the blood sacrifice God demands to redeem sin, and since Jesus did that, we are all welcome if we choose....and when that choice is made is totally up to God. Too many people get caught up in the "pre-death" vs "post-death" as if it means they won't get to heaven if someone else does. Such nonsense. Any true follower of Jesus would rejoice if someone who died and was not a believer turned into one in the last hour of their life, the last minute, or in the first period of the afterlife when they meet God.

Does this mean I do not believe in hell or that people will be there? I 100% believe in the place Jesus referred to as the fiery pit (some call this hell, others the pit prison) where there is eternal torment and gnashing of teeth, and that there are people there, or at least beings. We have to be very careful to say something that is not in line with what Scripture says, as I believe the Bible is infallible and also without contradiction. So if Jesus said something, it is true. But there might be nuance to what is written and sometimes what is written is not the full extent of the story, because maybe we humankind simply cannot begin to grasp or understand the reality of what is being said or written. I do not think any human should say any other human is going to hell though. It is not our place to judge. That is solely God/Jesus/Holy Spirit place to judge.

Does that help at all?


Edit for clarity: I do not read the Bible and say it is nuanced and open to interpretation by each individual. I believe there are some things that are doctrinal and not open to interpretation, but at the same time some things are taken by humans for humanistic purposes (fear, money, membership roles) and spun out of what the text actually says to manipulate people. We have be very wise and read the Bible in context of the story it tells. And taking a single verse or two and quoting those only is very ripe for mainpulative practice. I always read the chapter, and sometimes more, which contain the verses quoted to get the context of the greater picture being told by those verses.

Best post I’ve seen the whole thread, thank you