The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

[socoalt]

If the only thing keeping you from being a criminal or worse is your religion and the reward of heaven , you are not a human being , you are a monster on a leash .
I treat people the way I want to be treated , simple as that . I don't steal because I don't want to get robbed .
It's a simple concept , and it seems to work just fine .

I would argue that all morals and ethics are based from religion. Where does ones restraint to steal, murder, commit adultery come from? Who made the rules up first?

Non believers obey Gods “rules” while not believing in God and act morally superior because Christians “need” someone to tell them how to act? C’mon.

We are all monsters on leashes given the right circumstances. Even recent psychology has proven that. Any denial of the these facts is called something else, I believe you can find the term in the most recent version of the DSM.

 

[Beagle1]

You tell the dude he’s wrong, while also acknowledging his statement. In your own comment you refer to “people” twice committing the atrocities. Which is exactly what socoalt said… it’s also what I said. Humans, people, did these things in their own twisted truth, not Gods truth.

I find it funny how often you love to tell people they are wrong based on your own “truth.” It’s almost as if you’re exactly like the Christians you describe just on the opposite side of things. Force feeding your opinion as if it’s fact and you’re correct about everything. So blinded by trying to be right that you can’t even see how you’re acting.

Now I’m sure you’ll come back with some “no incorrect” or “well no” or “that’s incorrect.” Save it. You’ve been combative since you started posted on this thread being wild amounts of negativity and hostility. You’ve been called on it multiple times by multiple people. I think you’re just here to argue and tell people God isn’t real.

Yes I am not here to tell you what you want to hear. If you can’t handle opposing viewpoints and arguments that’s not my problem.

“You tell the dude he’s wrong,” I said if his statement is true that doesn’t mean his conclusion is true and used the historical novel example to point that out.

“Force feeding your opinion as if it’s fact and you’re correct about everything.” I am expressing my opinion and supporting it. That is no different than what the believers here are doing. Would you and the other believers be force feeding me.

“I find it funny how often you love to tell people they are wrong based on your own “truth.”
“Humans, people, did these things in their own twisted truth, not Gods truth.”

This is not a question of “my truth vs. your truth.” It’s a question of whether God’s actions, as described in the Bible, support his supposed goodness. You like to avoid the real issue which is not just what people have done in God’s name, but the scriptural accounts where God commands or approves violence which results in the deaths of innocents, especially children, in events said to be commanded or carried out by God. Even if one accepts that judgment was due to widespread corruption or idolatry, why would a just and loving God include the destruction of those too young to have sinned or understood. This is not just about religious fanatics misbehaving it’s about God’s own recorded actions and commands.

So once again if the points I raise take you out of your comfort zone that’s not my problem.

 

[go_deep]

Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil, for you are with me;
your rod and your staff comfort me.
Palms 23:4

 

[NVUplandHunter]

Yes I am not here to tell you what you want to hear. If you can’t handle opposing viewpoints and arguments that’s not my problem.

“You tell the dude he’s wrong,” I said if his statement is true that doesn’t mean his conclusion is true and used the historical novel example to point that out.

“Force feeding your opinion as if it’s fact and you’re correct about everything.” I am expressing my opinion and supporting it. That is no different than what the believers here are doing. Would you and the other believers be force feeding me.

“I find it funny how often you love to tell people they are wrong based on your own “truth.”
“Humans, people, did these things in their own twisted truth, not Gods truth.”

This is not a question of “my truth vs. your truth.” It’s a question of whether God’s actions, as described in the Bible, support his supposed goodness. You like to avoid the real issue which is not just what people have done in God’s name, but the scriptural accounts where God commands or approves violence which results in the deaths of innocents, especially children, in events said to be commanded or carried out by God. Even if one accepts that judgment was due to widespread corruption or idolatry, why would a just and loving God include the destruction of those too young to have sinned or understood. This is not just about religious fanatics misbehaving it’s about God’s own recorded actions and commands.

So once again if the points I raise take you out of your comfort zone that’s not my problem.

The comment you’re replying to wasn’t to you.. I left one for you but looking to continue to converse.. that comment was very specific to a specific person and how they are conducting themselves.

 

[go_deep]

Amen, I say to you, all sins and all blasphemies that people utter will be forgiven them.
But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an everlasting sin.
Mark 3:28-29

 

[dylanvb]

Yes I am not here to tell you what you want to hear. If you can’t handle opposing viewpoints and arguments that’s not my problem.

“You tell the dude he’s wrong,” I said if his statement is true that doesn’t mean his conclusion is true and used the historical novel example to point that out.

“Force feeding your opinion as if it’s fact and you’re correct about everything.” I am expressing my opinion and supporting it. That is no different than what the believers here are doing. Would you and the other believers be force feeding me.

“I find it funny how often you love to tell people they are wrong based on your own “truth.”
“Humans, people, did these things in their own twisted truth, not Gods truth.”

This is not a question of “my truth vs. your truth.” It’s a question of whether God’s actions, as described in the Bible, support his supposed goodness. You like to avoid the real issue which is not just what people have done in God’s name, but the scriptural accounts where God commands or approves violence which results in the deaths of innocents, especially children, in events said to be commanded or carried out by God. Even if one accepts that judgment was due to widespread corruption or idolatry, why would a just and loving God include the destruction of those too young to have sinned or understood. This is not just about religious fanatics misbehaving it’s about God’s own recorded actions and commands.

So once again if the points I raise take you out of your comfort zone that’s not my problem.

Once again you miss the whole point of God being God.

Who are we the creation to question the creator? Read all of Job 38.

If you don’t think the Bible is real then why do you go to scripture to point out the “evil” God has done? pick a side man it’s either all true or none of it is.

 

[Beagle1]

I would argue that all morals and ethics are based from religion. Where does ones restraint to steal, murder, commit adultery come from? Who made the rules up first?

Non believers obey Gods “rules” while not believing in God and act morally superior because Christians “need” someone to tell them how to act? C’mon.

We are all monsters on leashes given the right circumstances. Even recent psychology has proven that. Any denial of the these facts is called something else, I believe you can find the term in the most recent version of the DSM.

You don’t have to believe in God to resist killing or stealing, just as you don’t have to be religious to care for your children or risk your life for others. As for the “ monsters on leashes”, whether for religious or secular reasons, most people do good because it’s good not because they are being watched and fear punishment.

 

[socoalt]

You don’t have to believe in God to resist killing or stealing, just as you don’t have to be religious to care for your children or risk your life for others. As for the “ monsters on leashes”, whether for religious or secular reasons, most people do good because it’s good not because they are being watched and fear punishment.

Sure they do, they fear being judged by peers, family courts, etc. All of them who are watching. It’s easy for people to be moral when times are good but when faced with the right a mount of adversity anyone will resort to what they think is right to meet their needs.

But my main point was where do your morals and ethics originate? Not from your parents, or some court. Who gave the original rules to live by? God. In the Bible. You can choose to believe or not but if you consider yourself a good person you’re still following God’s “rules”.

 

[Beagle1]

Once again you miss the whole point of God being God.

Who are we the creation to question the creator? Read all of Job 38.

If you don’t think the Bible is real then why do you go to scripture to point out the “evil” God has done? pick a side man it’s either all true or none of it is.

If someone claims the Bible is the inspired word of God and then cites it to support moral claims, it’s fair game for a skeptic to point out parts that seem morally troubling. I’m just using your playbook.

As to questioning the “Creator”, why can’t I. You don’t find anything morally troubling in the Bible I do.

 

[dylanvb]

“But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: “Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.””
‭‭John‬ ‭12‬:‭37‬-‭40‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[dylanvb]

If someone claims the Bible is the inspired word of God and then cites it to support moral claims, it’s fair game for a skeptic to point out parts that seem morally troubling. I’m just using your playbook.

As to questioning the “Creator”, why can’t I. You don’t find anything morally troubling in the Bible I do.

No I don’t because I believe that God is just and righteous in all things. The thing you keep failing to understand is this.

WE ARE ALL SINNERS AND WE ARE ALL CONDEMNED TO DEATH.

The timing of our death is not a reflection on God’s injustice but rather Him fulfilling His own promise to us and His measurement of justice.

Jesus Christ didn’t come to save us from this life but the next.

 

[dylanvb]

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.””
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬-‭21‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[Beagle1]

Sure they do, they fear being judged by peers, family courts, etc. All of them who are watching. It’s easy for people to be moral when times are good but when faced with the right a mount of adversity anyone will resort to what they think is right to meet their needs.

But my main point was where do your morals and ethics originate? Not from your parents, or some court. Who gave the original rules to live by? God. In the Bible. You can choose to believe or not but if you consider yourself a good person you’re still following God’s “rules”.

The point in your first paragraph is right. I meant God driven watching and punishment. The secular aspect you raised I agree with.

The idea that morality can only come from the Bible assumes there were no moral codes before the Bible or outside of it. That’s not true. Hammurabi’s Code is one. That was around centuries earlier and it didn’t come with any stone tablets from Sinai.

Also, different cultures across time have developed very similar moral rules.

 

[dylanvb]

“Wisdom calls aloud outside; She raises her voice in the open squares. She cries out in the chief concourses, At the openings of the gates in the city She speaks her words: “How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge. Turn at my rebuke; Surely I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you. Because I have called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded, Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke, I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your terror comes, When your terror comes like a storm, And your destruction comes like a whirlwind, When distress and anguish come upon you. “Then they will call on me, but I will not answer; They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me. Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of the Lord, They would have none of my counsel And despised my every rebuke. Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way, And be filled to the full with their own fancies. For the turning away of the simple will slay them, And the complacency of fools will destroy them; But whoever listens to me will dwell safely, And will be secure, without fear of evil.””
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭1‬:‭20‬-‭33‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[dylanvb]

The point in your first paragraph is right. I meant God driven watching and punishment. The secular aspect you raised I agree with.

The idea that morality can only come from the Bible assumes there were no moral codes before the Bible or outside of it. That’s not true. Hammurabi’s Code is one. That was around centuries earlier and it didn’t come with any stone tablets from Sinai.

Also, different cultures across time have developed very similar moral rules.

Wrong, the Bible is the breathed word of God which has been around since the creation.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬-‭5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬-‭4‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[CRJR45]

T

Sir, thats not what I asked, maybe I wasn't clear, but that's not why I'm a Christian.
What is the point of all this, if there's not something after??

The point is life ! You live your life , you have offspring , and you die . But , you live on through your generations of offspring . The things that make you a individual and the things that define you should be passed down through your generations , making each generation better for it , for knowing you and your truths .
And in living your life , if you can help those in need , do it .
Just like all life on Earth , an endless cycle of dying and birth , we come and go , and the world still turns .
Why do you need a point to it all ?

 

[CRJR45]

I would argue that all morals and ethics are based from religion. Where does ones restraint to steal, murder, commit adultery come from? Who made the rules up first?

Non believers obey Gods “rules” while not believing in God and act morally superior because Christians “need” someone to tell them how to act? C’mon.

We are all monsters on leashes given the right circumstances. Even recent psychology has proven that. Any denial of the these facts is called something else, I believe you can find the term in the most recent version of the DSM.

Seven mass extinctions in the history of the world . Man has been around for much longer than Christianity and the early cultures all developed laws and were governed by men , enforced by men .
The Roman , the Egyptians , the Mayans , the Incas , the American Indians , ETC , ETC .
All did very well without knowing your god and following his rules , so the rules were set in place long before your god was ever conceived of , sorry .

 

[socoalt]

The point in your first paragraph is right. I meant God driven watching and punishment. The secular aspect you raised I agree with.

The idea that morality can only come from the Bible assumes there were no moral codes before the Bible or outside of it. That’s not true. Hammurabi’s Code is one. That was around centuries earlier and it didn’t come with any stone tablets from Sinai.

Also, different cultures across time have developed very similar moral rules.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

I love it, even now we have atheists arguing about doing good because it is good.

As if there is anything called "good" in their world...if this is all just one big cosmic mistake (big bang theory) then who is to say my definition of good is the same as the next persons? How can anyone condemn anyone else for kicking kittens, or snacking on their pets, or killing babies, if there is no basis for what is Good?

And do not come here saying society tells us wha is good and what isn't. Societies have always chosen the wrong paths time and time again as CRJ has shown us. Yet he condemns those who perpetrated "bad" in the name of religion as if it truly were BAD (and I am not saying it wasn't bad, but in the atheist mindset, how is that judgement made?).

How do you come to that conclusion? What is the basis for your morality if there is no God?

 

[JGRaider]

Yes I am not here to tell you what you want to hear. If you can’t handle opposing viewpoints and arguments that’s not my problem.

“You tell the dude he’s wrong,” I said if his statement is true that doesn’t mean his conclusion is true and used the historical novel example to point that out.

“Force feeding your opinion as if it’s fact and you’re correct about everything.” I am expressing my opinion and supporting it. That is no different than what the believers here are doing. Would you and the other believers be force feeding me.

“I find it funny how often you love to tell people they are wrong based on your own “truth.”
“Humans, people, did these things in their own twisted truth, not Gods truth.”

This is not a question of “my truth vs. your truth.” It’s a question of whether God’s actions, as described in the Bible, support his supposed goodness. You like to avoid the real issue which is not just what people have done in God’s name, but the scriptural accounts where God commands or approves violence which results in the deaths of innocents, especially children, in events said to be commanded or carried out by God. Even if one accepts that judgment was due to widespread corruption or idolatry, why would a just and loving God include the destruction of those too young to have sinned or understood. This is not just about religious fanatics misbehaving it’s about God’s own recorded actions and commands.

So once again if the points I raise take you out of your comfort zone that’s not my problem.

In the Old Testament, the wrath of God is a divine response to human sin and disobedience. Idolatry was most often the occasion for divine wrath. Psalm 78:56-66 describes Israel’s idolatry. The wrath of God is consistently directed towards those who do not follow His will (Deuteronomy 1:26-46; Joshua 7:1; Psalm 2:1-6). The Old Testament prophets often wrote of a day in the future, the "day of wrath" (Zephaniah 1:14-15). God’s wrath against sin and disobedience is perfectly justified because His plan for mankind is holy and perfect, just as God Himself is holy and perfect. God provided a way to gain divine favor—repentance—which turns God’s wrath away from the sinner. To reject that perfect plan is to reject God’s love, mercy, grace and favor and incur His righteous wrath.