The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

[Jpsmith1]

you have to have faith that the science is correct do you not? the definition of "believe" is to accept something is true. Well how can you accept that truth if you dont have faith i the source of it? The definition of faith is complete trust in someone or something. so in order to believe something you must have faith in complete trusting the source of it.

I think Texasbuckeye is totally correct in that a non believer needs more faith to believe in the science version. heck, evolution is still a theory unproven yet its widely accepted as fact. to believe every single living carbon based thing on this earth was a product of a bunch of small things colliding at the perfect ratio and BAM life was made? that takes a ton of faith to believe in. because you either question it, or you fully trust the person who told you or the book you read. No different than someone sharing the Gospel with me and believing it.

To believe in something other than religion does take a faith even if its in yourself and your own personal understanding of a subject. I choose not to have faith in myself but in a high being I call God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

This is one of the most annoying claims made by the religious folks.

"Well you have faith, too"

No. No I do not.

And we've covered this when we talked about what would change our minds.

The "faithful" ultimate say that nothing will change their minds.

The skeptical rely on evidence and change their minds routinely.

 

[Jpsmith1]

Now wait a second, you were just talking about who believes in logic and who believes in magic, and now you are talking about what is past the “end of space” and figuring out “before” and “after” time began and ends.

I like the way you think. Its logic if you think it but magic if someone else does. Thats fun.

You know the Bible has those concepts already played out, but heres me trying not to get you to think magically….

Heres a simple question for the logical people in the room:

When all the matter that existed in the universe was all together in the singularity, what force was holding it together? And then why did that same force decide to not work all of the sudden and explode?

Again, there is an explanation that some of us give that actually is less magical than the explanation science gives.

The answer is "we don't know"


If you wish to fit your God into the ever shrinking gaps of modern ignorance, you're welcome to do that but I'd rather just be intellectually honest and say "I'm not sure but I'm working on it"

 

[Bugger]

Now wait a second, you were just talking about who believes in logic and who believes in magic, and now you are talking about what is past the “end of space” and figuring out “before” and “after” time began and ends.

I like the way you think. Its logic if you think it but magic if someone else does. Thats fun.

You know the Bible has those concepts already played out, but heres me trying not to get you to think magically….

Heres a simple question for the logical people in the room:

When all the matter that existed in the universe was all together in the singularity, what force was holding it together? And then why did that same force decide to not work all of the sudden and explode?

Again, there is an explanation that some of us give that actually is less magical than the explanation science gives.

It’s logical to assume what we aren’t yet capable of observing is similar to what we have observed until proven otherwise, pretty basic concept. You’re clearly missing the point and unable to comprehend that people don’t cling to scientific theories as gospel. Nor did you actually read the definition of magic and logic. I don’t need to have an explanation for celestial phenomena to sleep at night.

It’s really not a fair conversation, you’re attempting to topple beliefs that I don’t have, and any counter is an attack on the foundation of your being. I see where this conversation is headed and I don’t think I can continue tactfully, so good luck with whoever jumps in next.

 

[dylanvb]

Claims are just that. Claims.

Claims must be demonstrated with evidence.

What I find interesting is that you'll immediately go to "the miracles" that Jesus performed. But those all exist within the Claims today. The Bible, taken as a whole, is the claim. It's not externally supported and what external support is offered is extremely weak.

I mean, let's take some of the stuff that supposedly happened when Jesus was resurrected.

Matthew 27: 51-54

At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

54 When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”

Where are the external validation of stories like this?

Surely SOMEONE would have noticed a bunch of what amount to zombies wandering the streets and thought "That’s unusual for a Tuesday afternoon, maybe I'll write that down."

You keep asking for specific historical evidence and when we show you something specific that points to the truth of the Bible you just ignore it.

Top Ten Discoveries in Biblical Archaeology Relating to the New Testament

NOTE: Here is the video version of this blog, from Episode 58 of the TV show, Digging for Truth, by the Associates for Biblical Research. This is part two of my series on the top ten discover…

biblearchaeologyreport.com

We might not have specific recordings to the exact moment you are asking for yet but there is plenty of evidence for other moments that correlate with that time frame.

 

[Bugger]

you have to have faith that the science is correct do you not?

Not really, because valid new information/ observations are welcome and expected to change what we know and think.

the definition of "believe" is to accept something is true.

It’s also “to hold an opinion”.

Well how can you accept that truth if you dont have faith i the source of it? The definition of faith is complete trust in someone or something. so in order to believe something you must have faith in complete trusting the source of it.

I believe we’re doing our best. Until 1903 most people believed human flight wasn’t even possible, less than 60 years later there was a man orbiting earth in the vacuum of space and came back to talk about it. We’re collectively pretty good at figuring things out.

 

[dylanvb]

I have an honest question, what science disproves the Bible and how? When we have a book that is talking about miracles and history how is science even relevant to the topic?

Like you mean to tell me that we are making discoveries on a daily basis that explain how things work to us and this somehow disproves an ALL POWERFUL, ALL KNOWING GOD, who created everything.

 

[go_deep]

Why isn't there more written evidence of Jesus Christ? It goes back to several dozen pages ago when I said you have to understand the times, the customs, who the people were.
Almost nobody knew how to write, writing materials we're hard to come by, even if you wrote it down, there was no guarantee your writing was going to survive a few thousand years, a couple wars, an entire burning of your town a few times. I mean there's tons of logical reasons why there isn't more writings, the above average person didn't know how write, and if they did, might not have been able to afford the materials to write on.

 

[dylanvb]

“Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭3‬:‭5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[dylanvb]

Why isn't there more written evidence of Jesus Christ? It goes back to several dozen pages ago when I said you have to understand the times, the customs, who the people were.
Almost nobody knew how to write, writing materials we're hard to come by, even if you wrote it down, there was no guarantee your writing was going to survive a few thousand years, a couple wars, an entire burning of your town a few times. I mean there's tons of logical reasons why there isn't more writings, the above average person didn't know how write, and if they did, might not have been able to afford the materials to write on.

Not to mention how much money it took to record things back then. The fact that the Bible has survived and is still relevant today is such a testimony to the word of God.

“The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.””
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭40‬:‭8‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[go_deep]

Shroud of Turin video, little over 8 minutes for those that are interested.

Check out this video from this search, the shroud of turin video https://g.co/kgs/UhN6jxB

 

[dylanvb]

To acknowledge that the Bible is even remotely truthful is to acknowledge the fact that God is real and this acknowledgement forces you to take responsibility for your life. The Bible shows you your own sin and this truth hurts.

I think a lot of people just aren’t ready to acknowledge it and therefore have to keep denying the Bible which is just denying history that is provable through archeology.

 

[dylanvb]

If Jesus Christ did not resurrect do you not think that the Jewish leaders of that time wouldn’t be parading his bones around? They would be shouting it from the rooftops that they have his bones. Where are they?

Has the Tomb of Jesus and the Burial Box That Contains His Bones Been Found in Jerusalem? by Don Stewart

Don Stewart :: Has the Tomb of Jesus and the Burial Box That Contains His Bones Been Found in Jerusalem?

www.blueletterbible.org

“Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise.”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭12‬-‭15‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[NVUplandHunter]

Claims are just that. Claims.

Claims must be demonstrated with evidence.

What I find interesting is that you'll immediately go to "the miracles" that Jesus performed. But those all exist within the Claims today. The Bible, taken as a whole, is the claim. It's not externally supported and what external support is offered is extremely weak.

I mean, let's take some of the stuff that supposedly happened when Jesus was resurrected.

Matthew 27: 51-54

At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

54 When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”

Where are the external validation of stories like this?

Surely SOMEONE would have noticed a bunch of what amount to zombies wandering the streets and thought "That’s unusual for a Tuesday afternoon, maybe I'll write that down."

someone did write that down and you just sighted it. Just because something is in the bible does not make it in valid. Its historical writings all contain in one book telling the story of a people over the span of thousands of years. recorded and documented to share with the world. stop discounting it as if it was a fictional writing. We are far past thinking that.

what else would a history book be? is a history book not the same thing? the telling of stories of people and things that have happened in the world?

you live your life too literally i think. i dont mean that as an insult either so please dont take it that way. i dont know what it is you're looking for. there are times in life where somethings simply cannot be explained to everyone. i cannot brain dump to you everything thats been revealed to me. you seem to be on a search for the absolute most perfect answer, i dont have that answer and only God does. Look to Him for answers to these questions. Even though you dont believe in Him, He believes in you and loves you. Turn to Him for the answers you're looking for at this point.
you're discounting any sort of reasoning or example given to you while what you're asking is right in front of you. the source is you issue and i dont think we are ever going to hash that out and fix that for you.

 

[NVUplandHunter]

This is one of the most annoying claims made by the religious folks.

"Well you have faith, too"

No. No I do not.

And we've covered this when we talked about what would change our minds.

The "faithful" ultimate say that nothing will change their minds.

The skeptical rely on evidence and change their minds routinely.

dude by literal definition, everyone has to have faith to believe in something. you either trust the source or you dont. Go look at a dictionary of the definitions i literally copied from google to make that comment.

Theres nothing annoying about it. You just dont like it or being called to it. You absolutely do have faith. you're so set on telling everyone how things are that you're denying basic definitions of words. I didnt say you have a religious faith, just faith.

you're skepticism is blinding you to what people are saying at this point and it seems like you're really trying to win. no one is battling you. no one is telling you how annoying your stances are or coming at you.

i see i have touched a nerve so ill leave this as my last comment as now we are entering the world in insults and im not going to be sucked in there. Best of luck to you and i hope you find what it is you are searching for.

 

[NVUplandHunter]

Not really, because valid new information/ observations are welcome and expected to change what we know and think.


It’s also “to hold an opinion”.


I believe we’re doing our best. Until 1903 most people believed human flight wasn’t even possible, less than 60 years later there was a man orbiting earth in the vacuum of space and came back to talk about it. We’re collectively pretty good at figuring things out.

yeah man i guess in the end one of us will be right and the other will be pretty disappointed.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

One thing that has made me laugh this whole thread, how easily some are dismissive of the most accurately written book in history, literally thousands of times more accurate than other books, yet the history in it is dismissed because they “don't like the contents” “its filled with magical miracles” and “it relies on faith to believe”

Yet the same people full 100% believe that life originated from some sort of primordial soup because that is what their “book” told them, not realizing that “book” has been trying to replicate the origin of life with all the ingredients and every possible (yet far fetched) manner in which this could have happened. Literally the imagination run wild and they still can not get it to work.

I know, the “book” hasn’t figured it out but it will eventually.

What happens then you might ask…does that disprove God. Heck no. It simply makes the process get even smaller. Figure out how dna can be made without first having the enzymes made which requires protein to he made…the biochemical reactions that have to take place in some “environment” are astronomical and simply magical. When you get down to the nitty gritty of life, the processes that had to take place to get anything here, let alone us, are so mind boggling and complex. One minir shift in a protein’s tertiary arrangement and the whole thing falls apart at the seams and bo life. And that is at EVERY step of the way. Not even getting into how those proteins came into existence, since it takes a huge amount of steps to get from raw universe matter to a primordial soup.

Faith? It takes more than faith to get there. It takes giant leaps of magocal thinking and pure imagination to just approach the landing pad.

 

[go_deep]

I think the most important part about the Bible people miss is they see it as one book because it's all within one cover, it's not one book, it's 73 books complied together into one place, called the Bible. So when people disregard the "book" called the Bible as one source, they disregarded 73 different books, 73 different sources pointing at one thing.

 

[Hill Difficulty]

dude by literal definition, everyone has to have faith to believe in something. you either trust the source or you dont. Go look at a dictionary of the definitions i literally copied from google to make that comment.

Theres nothing annoying about it. You just dont like it or being called to it. You absolutely do have faith. you're so set on telling everyone how things are that you're denying basic definitions of words. I didnt say you have a religious faith, just faith.

you're skepticism is blinding you to what people are saying at this point and it seems like you're really trying to win. no one is battling you. no one is telling you how annoying your stances are or coming at you.

i see i have touched a nerve so ill leave this as my last comment as now we are entering the world in insults and im not going to be sucked in there. Best of luck to you and i hope you find what it is you are searching for.

If you've seen the movie, The Princess Bride, do you remember Indigo Montoya?

If so, all of your mentions of "faith" cause me to quote Indigo: “You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

What definition for saving faith might you use during a dialogue with a non-believer who is asking?

Note that I'm trying to be helpful. Lots of guys here are asking... and deserve to know that Christians do not produce their own faith - see Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

[go_deep]

Here's a list of scientist that are world renown, have spent more time in a week digging deep into science then I have in my life, extremely well documented individuals because of their discoveries, research, writings in their own words, that through there scientific research helped them become strong believers in God, because of what scientific discoveries showed them and proved. I will not speak for anyone else, but these people are light-years smarter than me, and if some of the smartest people in the world are scientifically convinced and convicted to believe, due to what science proved to them, that is a testament of fact and truth in what is written in the Bible to me.

Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, Johannes Kepler, Robert Boyle, Michael Faraday, Blaise Pascal, Francis Collins, Galileo Galilei, Gregor Mendel, Francis Bacon, James Clerk Maxwell, Nicholas Copernicus, Arthur Compton, Leonhard Euler, Lord Kelvin, Max Planck, René Descartes, Werner Heisenberg, Antoine Lavoisier, Antonie van Leeuwenhoek, Charles Townes, George Washington Carver, Georges Lemaître, Guglielmo Marconi.

 

[NVUplandHunter]

If you've seen the movie, The Princess Bride, do you remember Indigo Montoya?

If so, all of your mentions of "faith" cause me to quote Indigo: “You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

What definition for saving faith might you use during a dialogue with a non-believer who is asking?

This is the definition i used above. i am fully aware of what the word means. to the point where i googled the definition to site it as the dictionary used so there wouldnt be any confusion on what i meant.


There is believe too since people seem to want to argue that definition to make it fit their position.

"saving faith" with anyone believer or not is a common saying we all know. meaning saving what trust people having in you. its simple.

now that you bring up that quote... "inconceivable" is absolutely a word that most comments could be summed with. Vizzini could not conceive that anyone would be smarter than him and his plan, yet he was wrong. he refused to look passed the end of his own nose and the facts around him and relied on himself and his own knowledge. In the end, he was wrong and paid for it. Great example, thanks for bring it up.