The "Elk Playbook" is it worth it ?

[ElkNut1]

MAT, no problem! I hear very clear what you you are saying & I agree 100% that it's tough to be aggressive in every situation, this is why we do not recommend this. Reading a situation means understanding what's going on that day with the elk, we need to fit in & not hunt carelessly. I'm sure you gave it your all but there are so many ways to hunt & kill elk. When you limit yourself to 5-7 days to elk hunt you really handicap yourself unless you know your area so well that it's like home to you. When this is not the case & elk are not talking it's best to utilize other methods. Quiet elk are the toughest to hunt! Trolling for elk at that time is your best bet. This means cold calling silent elk. Advertising & Breeding Sequences are your best available techniques at that time. Do enough of them as you cover ground will net positive results!

Also seriously consider having 4-5 back up areas, do not put all your eggs into one basket or one area. We all push elk, when we do we move on, that's elk hunting, elk do not travel 5 miles, they can relocate in a mile or so. (grin). The best way to hunt one area is to utilize your entire arsenal or bag of tricks. If calling isn't your bag consider sitting active trails that leads from bedding to feeding & vice versa. These areas are elk magnets! Why? Because elk use them, even satellite bulls use them as they scent check these areas cows are using, they are smelling for cows coming into estrus. They will travel these trails every other day. These could offer you better results if trying to hunt one spot & not bugger elk! The PlayBook shares such info. I think you were more focused on aggressive action so you implemented that.

Sorry if I mislead you with my enthusiasm but I just love the challenge of taking elk in there home territory! (grin) Don't give up on the PlayBook we've taken 178 elk on OTC Public Land hunts in the last 27 years with the info it provides! Thanks!

p.s. I 'd love to hear one specific encounter you were in but you felt the Book led you astray?

ElkNut1

 

[GotDraw?]

Whether you're a veteran or a rookie, ElkNut's Playbook is worth it.

I live on the East Coast, I would have never been able to come close to having a clue for gear, mapping, navigation and elk hunting insight if not for the internet and access to sites like Rokslide , Archery Talk, Hammock Forums, Outdoor Gear Lab, MyTopo, Hill Map and myriad others.

I put Elknut and their Playbook in the same category or higher. There were no guarantees that their book or videos would sell enough to make the effort worthwhile when Paul and his son invested what no doubt amounted to thousands of hours writing, editing and filming them. You can get great advice on this site, but few folks would spend the time to develop and share the broad and deep knowledge bank that the Elk Nuts have. I for one am grateful for their library of work product and hope they make a nice living off it.

From tree stands to stalking, to aggressively calling and raking... no single elk hunting or calling strategy will work in every situation. Good hunters learn to assess each encounter and adaptively pivot as necessary. Paul's book and videos gave me insight and access to skills I would not have gotten otherwise; and *more importantly*, sufficient belief in my own capabilities to head out into the wilderness, self-guided after studying and working hard on my calling.

Read The Play Book, then read it again.

Many thanks to all on this site who share their knowledge and on whose shoulders we, who are still learning, stand.

JL

 

[GotDraw?]

Bonedalien-

Sorry if I'm slow, but what are you trying to say or imply?

BTW-- love Carbondale and the little Nepalese restaurant there.


JL

 

[Bonedalien]

Bonedalien-

Sorry if I'm slow, but what are you trying to say or imply?

BTW-- love Carbondale and the little Nepalese restaurant there.i was just

JL

sorry i was just reading to deepy into anothers post.comment withdrawn

 

[GotDraw?]

RE Elk Nut's Playbook:
To be clear, I read that playbook over and over, listened to the CDs and practiced calling for weeks.

On my very first backcountry hunt, on public land. One the very first day. I climbed to a high ridge with my brother and dumped our packs, we were beat and saw NOTHING. So, I pulled out my bugle and said to him, "hey, I'm going to throw and call and see what happens..." This was the first bugle I ever blew in a hunting situation. I bugled and instantly, two shooter bulls appeared in on a tree line 400 yards steeply below us and several hundred yards out. I bugled once more, with just a little agitation in it. BAM! One of the bulls took off at a full run straight uphill at us, he came up so fast, that I couldn't even get my bow off my pack and me into shooting position before he ran right by us.

WOW. My hear was pounding and I was HOOKED. That was also the last time I ever blew a note w/o a bow in my hand.

No book will have all the answers, but this one tries darned hard. Rather than bashing things that don't work 100% of the time, I would truly love to hear from any Roksliders that work their way in silently or semi-silently with little calling RE how they do it? How do you close the gap, get in position and make it work when you have a dozen or more noses and two dozen plus ears on alert for you?

Any tips and/or positive info sharing appreciated.

JL

 

[Bonedalien]

gotdraw?
i was not commenting on any of your posts. there is one in this thread that directly blames the loss of a bull or two to this book,witch is totally ridiculous.
message me your next time in Carbondale, would love to buy you a beer or two!

 

[GotDraw?]

Bondalien,

Hey Bro! I am totally down for getting that beer!

BTW- I did not take it that you were bashing my post, so don't sweat it!

My most recent post, above, was simply to relate my personal success story RE hunting/calling after studying Elk Nut's book and practicing calling.

 

[ReddingArcher]

I just placed my order for the package the Elknut suggested earlier! Really excited to get it and start learning as much as possible! I'm trying to talk my hunting partners into an archery hunt in either Idaho or Colorado, neither o them are into elk hunting and would rather chase deer lol. May have to start looking for new hunting buddies or go solo.

 

[sneaky]

Yes, it's worth it, but only if you read it and actually take it with you lol. Best trade I ever made was with Paul, I sent him a bunch of different arrows and broadheads to try out in exchange for his playbook and DVD. Great investment.

 

[MtnManZ]

It is my belief that a hunter should do all they can to learn about the behavior of the animals they are pursuing. Elknut's Playbook has great info. I recommend it, however, it cannot replace real world experience....but it can help to clarify experiences you've been in but don't understand.

I also recommend Roe Hunting Resources. He has a lot of videos explaining elk behavior, footage of elk in the wild displaying these behaviors and "talking", how to make the elk calls, and when to make specific calls, etc. This is especially helpful if you are more of a visual learner.

 

[ElkNut1]

Thanks for all the comments guys. I appreciate your willingness to share your thoughts, good or bad is OK. Mat in his opinion had a couple of bad experiences & that can happen. I would like to know from him where he feels things derailed, let's get him back on track! Mat, please feel free to share an experience where you feel an encounter was compromised. If you would rather PM or email me about it that's great too. PM me here or email me at [email protected] -- thanks!

GotDraw, what a great experience you had right off the bat, my heart was beating fast just thinking of it! (grin)

You have a great question sir! There are a few things to consider as how to handle such a situation. First off, if hunting country that is semi timbered & you can hear a bull bugling frequently then it's a great move to head right at him in stealth mode. He's giving you a direction as long as he's vocal. If an hour after daylight to before 10 a.m. you may have to dog the herd to bedding, once their destination is reached that's where you move in slowly & undetected, the last 100 yards are the toughest & slowest moving in & getting position. Calling can be employed towards an aggressive bull if the bull has a hot cow in the group, this will up your odds of a physical appearance from him. You will know if there is a hot cow if multiple bulls are harassing the herd.

If you do not feel comfortable calling you will have to shadow the group & do your best to coyote in to the bugling bull or to his cows, you need to get to bowrange & setup, sooner or later the bull will make his rounds checking out the cows. It's a tough one as you need the wind to hold up the entire time of your stay as you await the bulls presence.

If you can get ahead of the group & anticipate their direction & destination you can employ an ambush as they come by.

Another approach if the terrain is noisy to move through is to get to the 150 yard or closer & get the bull to answer your cow call, once he does you can make your way to him cow calling every 15-20 seconds as you go right at him giving him what he's asking for.

Another option is to get inside the 100 yard range, cow call excitedly, once the herd bull responds bugle coarsely in a challenge mode, this can really trip an aggressive bull. Again, this is employed on a bull with a hot cow in the group for best results!

There are other methods that can be used but there's a couple. Above all watch the wind & do not put a time frame on your approach, patience, patience, patience!

If this doesn't help please be more specific in your question & terrain issues of a real encounter. Thanks!

ElkNut1

 

[MAT]

Let me repeat, I have made plenty of mistakes by being too aggressive AND by being too passive. The key is knowing how to read elk. New elk hunters don’t know this so tend to be more aggressive when they should be more passive until they learn. It’s not hard to see why when you read books or watch videos. One IMPORTANT point to note is just because it works once does not mean it’s the rule. You can bugle a 100 more times from the ridge top an never have a bull run at you again, but you can and likely will chase off elk you never saw. This is what rookies often don’t realize, you can and will scare elk you never knew where there. And keep in mind I’m talking about high pressured elk in states like CO. They hear plenty of bugles and it doesn’t take them long to learn. Back in the old days you could whistle them in with a gas pipe, so it’s an evolution. Turkeys taught me this, when we first got a huntable population in WI they were super easy to call in the woods, which is where you found them. Not anymore, now you need to be in the fields as that’s where they go right from the roost. Unrealistic decoys don’t work anymore either. Elk are no different, once you and everyone else figures out a calling tactic it won’t last forever.

Hunting elk is a game of probabilities as there are way more options compared to hunting deer from treestands. And you cannot discount pure luck, which can make any tactic look easy (including taking a dump, it has worked before!). My only real point is if you do not have other elk to hunt because of limited time or where you are located the single worst thing you can do is bump elk by being too aggressive. ElkNuts book is a great resource but he doesn’t have the same time and area constraints like most NR hunters. It took me a long time to figure it out but elk in different areas of the country respond to calling differently. If you are planning to challenge bugle at a bull in CO (likely a raghorn) you better be very close and at the ready, because IF he comes (likely not) it will be fast and when sees no elk he’ll gather his cows and will be gone. There will be no second chance. So is the probability better that I’ll kill him, or bump him to the next drainage? Are you willing to shake the dice? Not me in most situations. The hardest part as a NR hunter is finding elk, and that might take a few days. With maybe 6 days left I’d rather gamble on the side of having elk around to hunt for a few more days.

My technique has become more and more low impact sneak in as close as you can get. I grew up on whitetails and was deathly afraid of elk seeing or hearing me, but elk are not deer so you can get away with more things than a hyper whitetail. I only cold call to locate (cow call works as good as a bugle, and less chance to call in another hunter). The last bull I played with in CO I cow called into 5 yards once I was within the herd. I could have bugled and it might have worked, but he would also respond to a cow call so it was a safer bet. If not for being on the wrong side of a tree I would have killed him. 300 yards later I was again in the herd, I could have been aggressive and bugled at him again, or used the bull goring a cow trick in the playbook, but that’s a one shot deal that never worked for me. Instead I waited for him to gather his cows to head off to bed and as soon as he left my sight I did a lost cow call and he came right back and I promptly missed him at 25 yards. My next mistake was assuming I hit him and reached for another arrow too soon and he busted me. I think I cow called 3 times the entire time, and I had 2 chances at the same bull, maybe more if I didn’t get myself busted. Aggressive I would have only had 1 chance, if I had one at all.

Humans as the main predator of elk created the elk we have today. All the aggressive elk that act like they are supposed to get killed, it’s the quiet “I’m a lover not a fighter” bulls these days that get to procreate .

 

[GotDraw?]

Thoughtful, instructive and... well written!
JL

 

[ElkNut1]

Mat, thank you for the response! Lots to consider here. I will be happy to respond to all 3 paragraphs but one at a time.

# 1 - I agree 100% about Reading The Situation, it was mentioned above, those are not just words, they carry a lot of weight behind them. This means as hunters we need to know when to be aggressive & when not to be. Experience will be the best teacher here, this means a hunter would have to be in well over 100 encounters to understand what he should do next to give him the best odds at that time for a particular bull. There is no one method that applies to all bulls. We need to be able to read & react very similar to your Turkey hunting skills! All the info in the PlayBook stems from OTC Public Land hunts, this includes CO. When calling to elk to establish their location you do not continue to call once located. You would treat it the same as you would if glassing for elk. Once located you now move towards them in hopes of an ambush or whatever the situation may call for, all encounters can be different!

Most elk hunters today are far to passive, they are turning into cow callers by & large. I've given quite a few seminars over the last 15 years & I can assure you most hunters do not call nearly enough or correctly when they do. Calling is more of an art that most realize! The reason this happens is because they fear blowing elk out of an area instead of having the confidence that they will kill an elk. There's a big difference in being aggressive & being careless. Done properly & you will not push the elk to a new zipcode. What pushes elk out is being seen or winded not bugling or cow calling. Again, this is from experience not what I read on the Internet.

We have to appreciate as hunters that we need to take into consideration the area we are hunting & the pressure that may be around, this will dictate our aggressiveness or lack of it as well as the mood or rutting action of the elk. This is explained in detail in the PlayBook. It appears that you have applied a large focus on aggressive action & not employing the other thoughts when a more subtle approach may be needed.

I'd like to share an encounter with you that happened this year! This is a perfect example of reading a situation. I would like for you to read up to the the part about this bull bugling on his own then I'll start a new paragraph, think about how you would have handled it, then read on as to how we handled it & why! OTC Idaho hunt with wolves & tons of hunters!

My son & I headed up the mountain where he killed a bull 2 years prior, we are aprox 45 min before daylight with head lamps on, we've hiked straight up through the timber, brush & alders for about 10 minute off a dirt road, we hear a bugle a 1/4 mile or more well above us. Sweet! We continue up another 15 minutes, it's very steep here with quite a bit of downfall to contend with & it's raining so it's it's pretty slick conditions. This bull has bugled on his own 1/2 dozen times now on his own, we have not responded back, we keep heading up. We notice no other bulls have responded back to him but he continues to bugle every few minutes, Why? OK, here's where you read the situation & apply what's necessary to kill this bull, he's a herd bull! Yes, we kill him!

OK, I'm reading what's going on here, it doesn't matter about hunting pressure or what state I'm in, it's all about what message this bull is sending out for his mood right then & there! In reading him I see no other bulls are responding to him, this shows me no cows in estrus as he's not being harassed by satellites. Multiple bulls bugling in one location signifies "hot cows" -- OK, no hot cows! But, he's Advertising his location in an effort to draw cows his way & build his herd, they never have enough! (grin) We get to 250 yards away from this bull because we cannot get through the thick alders & underbrush, it's super thick! I start giving this bull what he's asking for, COWS!! I work him with rustling the brush, foot stomping & low to medium cow whines, when he responds I respond immediately letting him know I heard him. The bull works his way down to 150 yards & hangs ups for no reason, he cannot look down & see the source of the calling because of the thick terrain. I realize now that he's cagey & has been worked before. I now leave my son as shooter & retreat back pleading with low whines like a dog whimpering for his owners attention. I get to aprox 80 yards away from my son whimpering away over 100 times in 10-12 minutes & I hear all hell break loose with crashing & running. I head back up to my son & he's smiling & pointing up the hill where the bull lays dead! This wasn't real aggressive but borderline. It's his 25th elk down with a bow, I've had the privilege of calling all of them in. This is reading the situation & acting accordingly. It's all in the playbook! It's not rocket science but close! (grin)

I'll respond to the 2nd chapter here as well. Please feel free to comment here! Thanks!

ElkNut1

 

[Indian Summer]

I'll answer a question with a question: Elknut.... how any bulls has your crew killed in the past say 10 or 15 years using the techniques outlined in the Playbook? I can't remember what that number was and am curious myself.

 

[Northernpiker]

Good reading, this thread and the Playbook. Gets me fired up for hunting again.

 

[ElkNut1]

Indian, we take an average of 6-8 bulls a year between the 5 of us. Please note because we are known as the ElkNut Crew doesn't mean we are some popular TV show, we are not! We are regular guys just like everyone here who hunt OTC Public Lands. We hunt where you all here hunt, we fight the same hunting pressures everyone does, you can toss countless wolves into the mix too. For some reason many feel that we hunt different elk & country & our elk must be easy! (grin) Not the case folks, we hunt hard & in most cases we hunt alone, we will cover 6-10 miles a day on foot, we have no limitations to distance or terrain, we hunt our a$$es off. We do not have spotters out for us & rarely hunt together. We share the same passion & will get together on occasion to share what's working that year & what isn't. We are continually adjusting methods & techniques to keep up with these educated elk. It's a challenge for sure & a ton of fun! We use the same methods & techniques outlined in the DVD & CD's that we share. This means we hunt Quiet elk & Vocal elk, there are strategies for both, quiet elk being the toughest to hunt! The two top methods of use are knowing how & when to present an Advertising Sequence or a Breeding Sequence. These two put more elk on the ground than any other. The PlayBook is just another tool, it's not an end all to elk hunting.

We hunt mountainous country, we do not hunt farm lands or anywhere near agriculture fields where special privileges may be had. We pack all our own elk out on our backs, no one does this for us. Our success lies in our perseverance & determination not to fail. Understanding elk sounds & when & why used by the elk has helped to up our success when sheer determination isn't enough! I cannot stress enough the importance of understanding the critter you're hunting, it has helped us 10 fold & carries right down till today, we took 7 bulls this year. The areas we hunt have a 5.9% success stat for a bull or cow. Maybe we're lucky maybe we're good maybe a bit of both, I do know come elk season we are ready & we expect to kill an elk everytime we hit the woods, we have a positive attitude everyday.

I know this is more than you asked but I want folks to know we are hunters like they are, we started at the bottom learning all we could & not giving up. Over time we've learned a lot & still learn more every year, this is necessary to stay at the top of your game.

ElkNut1

 

[Ross]

Could not of said it better, the keys to OTC elk hunting success over all other perseverance and determination. I have hunted similar country to the elknut crew for coming on four decades and there has never been any magic to success. Be prepared, work harder than most, take out the variables, give yourself ample time, be flexible and stay positive as success can be had at any time. 7 months and counting!

 

[ElkNut1]

Ross, agree as well 100% - Stay positive & determined, good things can come our way! 5 minutes of high adrenaline excitement can erase 10 days of frustration! (grin)

ElkNut1

 

[sasquatch]

Paul, on that story about the bull your some killed, when hung up and you retreated while calling to make him think you was leaving bringing him on into your son, if you was a lone hunter what would you have tried to do?