The CWD scam

[elkhunter505]

Anytime one of my friends send me a video from somebody “who is in the know” I always ask one question. Why does it take 45 minutes for some “expert” to transmit a point of view when the New York Times or BBC can do it 6 paragraphs or 3 minutes.

This phenomenon seems to me in my own opinion to be that half the population of the public wants to see an extremely in depth overview of why they made those decisions or how those things occur and the other half just wants to know what you're going to do about it. The safe bet is to error on the side of caution and explain it fully because your words end up in games of telephone between the people and if you aren't perfectly accurate in your description, you only have yourself to blame when it is taken the wrong way. If you are perfectly accurate, you can at least point people to exactly what you said, but if not, then you're kind of caught in a catch 22 where that's not what you meant but you have no way to defend yourself because you explained it poorly and one of the people that wants to see an in depth description is not satisfied with what you said.

 

[wytx]

Dr James Kroll was one of my major professors and while he knows a lot about WT deer I wouldn't listen to him on cwd.
We have dealt with it for years now and no it is not a scam but we are not testing every animal we take and we hunt across the fence from Sybille Research center.

 

[elkhunter505]

Dr James Kroll was one of my major professors and while he knows a lot about WT deer I wouldn't listen to him on cwd.
We have dealt with it for years now and no it is not a scam but we are not testing every animal we take and we hunt across the fence from Sybille Research center.

Yeah guy may be really knowledgeable surrounding deer management itself, but sounds like his CWD takes are not supported by science. Glad to see someone on her that has personal experience with him. I am just going on the word of mouth from people that I know and the things I can find on the internet.

 

[Mish-pop]

I've had one deer and one elk tested. The more it encroaches on my hunting areas the more inclined I am to have the animal tested that I harvest. There is no science proving it can jump yet but I do have a newborn at home now and makes you think about these things a little more. Also, I do make a lot of meat into summer sausage which I cook to a high enough temp for long enough to kill the prions. Just the steak and chislic I would be slightly worried about if anything.

 

[elkhunter505]

I've had one deer and one elk tested. The more it encroaches on my hunting areas the more inclined I am to have the animal tested that I harvest. There is no science proving it can jump yet but I do have a newborn at home now and makes you think about these things a little more. Also, I do make a lot of meat into summer sausage which I cook to a high enough temp for long enough to kill the prions. Just the steak and chislic I would be slightly worried about if anything.

Point of information, it takes 1000 degrees Celsius for an extended time to kill the prions. You cannot cook prions out of meat (at least not meat you'd want to eat) if they are there.

Edited for accuracy on the temperature.

 

[RockAndSage]

I'm about done with the miseducated calling uncomfortable things stuff they don't like a "scam".

 

[Mish-pop]

Point of information, it takes 900 degrees Fahrenheit for an extended time to to kill the prions. You cannot cook prions out of meat (at least not meat you'd want to eat) if they are there.

I guess I had read some misinformation then. Thank you for the correction

 

[Pacific_Fork]

At the very least feed the meat to your dog. Such a waste trashing it.

Hunting for whitetails in known CWD areas where tag opportunities are abundant don’t bother me. People who draw a tag then trash the meat when someone else would have liked that tag bother me a little. Why put in for an area that you’re willing to discard the meat. Prions aren’t found in places other than brain and spinal fluid to my understanding.

I'm about done with the miseducated calling uncomfortable things stuff they don't like a "scam".

You mean like the Covid “conspiracy theorist” who all turned out to be correct? If you don’t ever question experts and science..man what a way to live is all I’ll say.

 

[elkhunter505]

You mean like the Covid “conspiracy theorist” who all turned out to be correct? If you don’t ever question experts and science..man what a way to live is all I’ll say.

Let's stay away from this topic. Whether or not someone believes or doesn't believe in those theories is highly tied to their political leaning. The topic is CWD not Covid.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

At the very least feed the meat to your dog. Such a waste trashing it.

Hunting for whitetails in known CWD areas where tag opportunities are abundant don’t bother me. People who draw a tag then trash the meat when someone else would have liked that tag bother me a little. Why put in for an area that you’re willing to discard the meat. Prions aren’t found in places other than brain and spinal fluid to my understanding.



You mean like the Covid “conspiracy theorist” who all turned out to be correct? If you don’t ever question experts and science..man what a way to live is all I’ll say.

No. I love my dogs more than most people, why the hell would I risk feeding them tainted meat? I've done my fair share of eating questionable meat to be sure it doesn't go to waste, deer that weren't recovered for 24 hours in the heat, meat that stinks but smells good after rinsing it off, all sorts of things. Prions aren't something I want to toy with.

As for the attempted comparison, I've seen a lot of debates on our local forums and once people attempt to draw comparisons to COVID it's usually a sign they've lost the CWD debate and are drawing straws. They're not comparable so ends up just discrediting their stance.

 

[TaperPin]

We had a family member who lived on wild game for 70 years get a prion related thing that killed him - it was probably not from CWD, but the thing we didn’t realize is once the diagnosis is made there’s no effort spent figuring out where it came from, or if it’s just a spontaneous change in the brain. Zero. Effort costs money and nobody is volunteering their money to study such things with everyday people.

Natural selection will take some animals and people out of the gene pool before this is ever figured out. There are bigger monsters to be afraid of, but I’d rather not be the first confirmed case if it’s easy to avoid.

 

[elkhunter505]

At the very least feed the meat to your dog. Such a waste trashing it.

Also, we already know that the prion can survive the digestive track of coyotes, so any presence of the prion within that meat, your dog is then spreading it onto the ground in your own neighborhood. The best possible thing we can do to eliminate any possibility of it spreading is to incinerate it. Whether or not that is within your own values system is one thing, but the prions can and do pass through the digestive tract of predators unharmed and are then present in the landscape wherever that predator defecates. My values system says I have a responsibility to not put prions on the ground in my own neighborhood so I would immediately dispose of the meat if I were to shoot a positive deer. Others may not feel the same, but the science is clear and shows it will pass through carnivore digestive tracts unharmed.

 

[waspocrew]

Prions aren't something I want to mess with. If an animal tests positive for CWD, I'm not going to eat it, nor would I make the rest of my family eat it.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

Also, we already know that the prion can survive the digestive track of coyotes, so any presence of the prion within that meat, your dog is then spreading it onto the ground in your own neighborhood. The best possible thing we can do to eliminate any possibility of it spreading is to incinerate it. Whether or not that is within your own values system is one thing, but the prions can and do pass through the digestive tract of predators unharmed and are then present in the landscape wherever that predator defecates. My values system says I have a responsibility to not put prions on the ground in my own neighborhood so I would immediately dispose of the meat if I were to shoot a positive deer. Others may not feel the same, but the science is clear and shows it will pass through carnivore digestive tracts unharmed.

That is a great take on this whole thing, kudos sir.

 

[Reburn]

Point of information, it takes 900 degrees Fahrenheit for an extended time to to kill the prions. You cannot cook prions out of meat (at least not meat you'd want to eat) if they are there.

Most places suggest 1000C aka inceneration temps.
I saw Virginia said 900F. Im pretty sure they used a F in place of a C.

 

[2531usmc]

My knowledge on the topic—and of "Dr. Deer"—is limited, but I will say much of what he says about the changes in the culture of state game management folks is 100% true. He also has a point about wanting to see some statistically significant proof that X or Y has worked as a strategy. Seems logical.

People love to say "peer-reviewed" science when it comes to wildlife research. I find it hilarious, because there’s a ton of heavily cited, peer-reviewed science in the wildlife world that has zero statistically significant results. Yet, news outlets talk about it all the time. It was rampant during the whole wolf deal in Colorado. Wolves solving cwd, saving millions of dollars by reducing car wrecks with deer, etc...

I went through a period in my life where I’d hear a biologist, political talking head, or article/media outlet say something, and then I’d go track down the actual paper. Pull up the statistics. In the vast majority of cases, it was a NOTHING BURGER statistically. A lot of the stuff you’ll run into doesn’t even have data—seriously, there is no data. The conclusions are based on models alone.

One time, I spent probably 30 hours of my life analyzing a model that was used by the National Park Service to draw some giant conclusions about goat/sheep competition. Those conclusions resulted in a bunch of goats being killed and other management decisions. I’ve spent an enormous amount of time hunting goats and bighorns... the assumptions in that model were so off base it made me cringe.

CWD may be the worst thing on earth, and this guy might be 100% wrong on that front—but he’s right about questioning things.

Models are based algorithms and algorithms can be tweaked to show whatever you really want to show. How biased are the software guys coding the algorithms?

 

[elkhunter505]

That is a great take on this whole thing, kudos sir.

Yep. CWD science is clear in comparison to many other portions of wildlife management. There is uncertainty surrounding it but it is much less uncertainty than other problems that we deal with. I think it is important to think about this in a way that peoples' values systems are a portion of it. There is wild levels of variation between people's values systems when it comes to CWD management and deer management in general. The science itself is very clear, but in the face of conflicting values, science cannot and will not be used as the sole information behind management decisions. If everyone in the hunting space solely valued long-term deer herd health, there would be way more tags and way more deer dying. Even if they value long-term deer herd health, they also value their own hunting experience which is better when there is more deer, which is diametrically opposed to having lower levels of CWD when CWD has been found in an area.

 

[elkhunter505]

Models are based algorithms and algorithms can be tweaked to show whatever you really want to show. How biased are the software guys coding the algorithms?

I don't work on CWD directly, but I am one of the guys that does code these algorithms for other wildlife management decisions. I can tell 99% of the people making it up to this level have to take science ethics courses or are exposed heavily to science ethics. We have a job to be objective in our modeling regardless of what we may believe personally. It's directly in our own interest to be objective and transparent because if we aren't it is a major detriment to our own job security. I know that I have opinions but when it comes down to it on science, my opinions and biases take a backseat because I have a job to be objective and let the data and science speak for itself.

 

[wytx]

Most places suggest 1000C aka inceneration temps.
I saw Virginia said 900F. Im pretty sure they used a F in place of a C.

Most of the incinerators used by Wyoming are 1,800+ degrees, the state vet lab and at Sybille.

 

[Skerhunter]

Yep. CWD science is clear in comparison to many other portions of wildlife management. There is uncertainty surrounding it but it is much less uncertainty than other problems that we deal with. I think it is important to think about this in a way that peoples' values systems are a portion of it. There is wild levels of variation between people's values systems when it comes to CWD management and deer management in general. The science itself is very clear, but in the face of conflicting values, science cannot and will not be used as the sole information behind management decisions. If everyone in the hunting space solely valued long-term deer herd health, there would be way more tags and way more deer dying. Even if they value long-term deer herd health, they also value their own hunting experience which is better when there is more deer, which is diametrically opposed to having lower levels of CWD when CWD has been found in an area.

How exactly is the science on cwd very clear? My understanding is we are still are still trying to prove/disproves the theories on how tse’s work. Sounds like you are pretty up to date - do you have any good references to share?