“The 22 Creedmoor Project”

[Lawnboi]

Why lube the case rim?

The rim of the neck. As the mandrel goes down on my sac die is kisses some lube, and goes smoother on the way back through when the mandrel is doing the work.

Just keeps some lube on the mandrel.

 

[HighUintas]

The rim of the neck. As the mandrel goes down on my sac die is kisses some lube, and goes smoother on the way back through when the mandrel is doing the work.

Just keeps some lube on the mandrel.

When I toss my cases in a Ziploc with Lee lube, before I started using imperial graphite I used to use a nylon brush to brush all the necks and get some lube in there. It works pretty well. I see no benefit of using graphite over that

 

[Lawnboi]

When I toss my cases in a Ziploc with Lee lube, before I started using imperial graphite I used to use a nylon brush to brush all the necks and get some lube in there. It works pretty well. I see no benefit of using graphite over that

I used to use graphite, it just dosnt work as good as a wet lube like imperial ime. I’m tumbling the case after anyways to get lube off, that way I’m putting imperial on once, size, mandrel, decap in one pull, and into the tumbling bucket it goes.

Carbide and a little lube leaves nice smooth necks

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I appreciate that! I have them as well. This was just a really quick, run and out shoot type thing on a whim.

I normally just use the correct size circular objects to make it look nice. The one time I wing it and @mxgsfmdpx calls me out on it . Never again now hahaha.

I would have never said anything if you didn’t call me out on my horribly drawn squares on yellow fricken binder paper lol.

 

[huntnful]

Just got done shooting. Testing Retumbo and H1000 in my buddy’s 7-300 NMI as well as positional stuff with the 22CM.

Shot about 15 rounds with Retumbo testing charge weights and bullets in the 7-300. And then switched straight over to the known load with H1000 and the first 4 shot group was 1/4 MOA at 600 yards. So I guess that rules out switching powders causing first round POI shifts haha. Just thought I’d update about that.

We shot some seated and kneeling positional stuff at 600 yards and 300 yards with the 22CM. 600 yards was untimed and 300 yards was timed. It was good fun. Out of 40 rounds (20, a piece) only 1 hit would have been a questionable kill on a deer, so that was nice to see as well.

 

[huntnful]

We each did this 3 times, at 300 yards shooting at our own dots for time. Then we tested a few different seated positions for stability, untimed as well. Toe of the stock is resting directly on my knee. I literally don’t know what I’m doing. Just testing things and learning. Seeing what works with my lack of flexibility and what doesn’t.

This was the 300 yard target afterwards.


Cool see the high trend of the impacts without a rock solid rear rest. As well as most of dispersion of the groups was horizontal, which is where the crosshair would dance from left to right, much more than up and down.

 

[Ens Entium]

We each did this 3 times, at 300 yards shooting at our own dots for time. Then we tested a few different seated positions for stability, untimed as well. Toe of the stock is resting directly on my knee. I literally don’t know what I’m doing. Just testing things and learning. Seeing what works with my lack of flexibility and what doesn’t.

This was the 300 yard target afterwards.
View attachment 813011

Cool see the high trend of the impacts without a rock solid rear rest. As well as most of dispersion of the groups was horizontal, which is where the crosshair would dance from left to right, much more than up and down.

Could you clarify the "oversized" use of the nylon brush? For example a .243 blue Iossso on the .224?

 

[huntnful]

Could you clarify the "oversized" use of the nylon brush? For example a .243 blue Iossso on the .224?

I don't use any abrasives. but I'm basically talking just one caliber larger brush than bore diameter. So yes, a .243 brush for a .224 caliber.

 

[HighUintas]

What tends to happen as well when cleaning, is that you get sporadic jumps in POI and MV. That is- everything is good, but then at some point as the throat starts to go, you get a POI shift. Then it stays for a few hundred rounds and a couple of cleanings, then a POI and/or MV shift. Etc etc.

That’s why I and those I shoot with don’t clean- stability. I don’t care if precision opens up .1 or .2 MOA (it rarely does) over a clean barrel, because from round 100 to 150 through very close to the end of the barrels life- nothing moves. Zero stays the same days to day, MV is consistent, etc. Predictability.

I've got a couple questions on this.

Are you implying that by cleaning with some regularity that it allows the throat to "go" but if you do not clean over the life of the barrel that the throat does not "go"? I'm not sure what "go" is intended to mean but I take it as meaning that the throat lengthens. I can see on one hand that maybe if there's a solid hard baked carbon layer over the lands that the throat would not lengthen, but have not looked at this myself or seen anyone state it or suggest it. I'm not sure if you're implying that or if you're just stating your experience.

In your experience with an overbore cartridge, like 22cm or 6um that would have a relatively short life compared to a 308... Have you consistently been able to shoot a barrel out without cleaning and not have any poi change with a given load? I thought you'd mentioned somewhere in another thread that the overbore cartridges are not as stable due to the throat eroding over time.

 

[Formidilosus]

I've got a couple questions on this.

Are you implying that by cleaning with some regularity that it allows the throat to "go" but if you do not clean over the life of the barrel that the throat does not "go"? I'm not sure what "go" is intended to mean but I take it as meaning that the throat lengthens. I can see on one hand that maybe if there's a solid hard baked carbon layer over the lands that the throat would not lengthen, but have not looked at this myself or seen anyone state it or suggest it. I'm not sure if you're implying that or if you're just stating your experience.

No, or at least not what I was talking about there.


The first thing, is yes- not cleaning does seem to keep the throat condition more stable over the total rounds fired- I mean that COAL changes do not need to be tweaked as the barrel wears to keep precision/zero stable. Whether that is due to carbon building up and “coating” the throat, I do not know. No- the carbon does not keep building up until it obscures the bore- that’s BS. In hundreds of barrels, when we stopped cleaning, usable barrel life remained the same and almost universally went up.

Second, is “stable bore condition”. The largest difference in bore condition is from dirty to clean. Then each successive shot is less and less variable from the last. I.E., from shot #50 say, to clean and shot #1 is a lot of difference. From shot 988 to shot 989 there is zero functional difference.

In your experience with an overbore cartridge, like 22cm or 6um that would have a relatively short life compared to a 308... Have you consistently been able to shoot a barrel out without cleaning and not have any poi change with a given load?

Yes. At the very end of the barrels life (I use precision over what is acceptable- usually over 1.75 MOA for general hunting guns), you may see a POI shift. So for a 22CM for instance- from around 80-150 rounds to well over 1,000 (+/-) rounds the zero is static.

I thought you'd mentioned somewhere in another thread that the overbore cartridges are not as stable due to the throat eroding over time.

That’s correct. But it’s relative. A 6 UM has a sub 1,000 round barrel life- it has that same barrel life whether they are cleaned or not; however, in all that we are seeing- the guys not cleaning are getting longer usable life from their barrels. But the 6 UM, at 500 to 600 rounds I am starting to watch the barrel as I know it’s getting close. On the other hand, with a 308 I don’t care at all how many rounds it gets on it- 10,000 rounds doesn’t scare me, nor cause worry if precision is still acceptable.

 

[HighUintas]

No, or at least not what I was talking about there.


The first thing, is yes- not cleaning does seem to keep the throat condition more stable over the total rounds fired- I mean that COAL changes do not need to be tweaked as the barrel wears to keep precision/zero stable. Whether that is due to carbon building up and “coating” the throat, I do not know. No- the carbon does not keep building up until it obscures the bore- that’s BS. In hundreds of barrels, when we stopped cleaning, usable barrel life remained the same and almost universally went up.

Second, is “stable bore condition”. The largest difference in bore condition is from dirty to clean. Then each successive shot is less and less variable from the last. I.E., from shot #50 say, to clean and shot #1 is a lot of difference. From shot 988 to shot 989 there is zero functional difference.






Yes. At the very end of the barrels life (I use precision over what is acceptable- usually over 1.75 MOA for general hunting guns), you may see a POI shift. So for a 22CM for instance- from around 80-150 rounds to well over 1,000 (+/-) rounds the zero is static.





That’s correct. But it’s relative. A 6 UM has a sub 1,000 round barrel life- it has that same barrel life whether they are cleaned or not; however, in all that we are seeing- the guys not cleaning are getting longer usable life from their barrels. But the 6 UM, at 500 to 600 rounds I am starting to watch the barrel as I know it’s getting close. On the other hand, with a 308 I don’t care at all how many rounds it gets on it- 10,000 rounds doesn’t scare me, nor cause worry if precision is still acceptable.

Thanks for that clarification.

Having a static poi over the 1000 round barrel life for a 6um is much more appealing than having to adjust the zero due to changing throat conditions over the barrel life (cleaning or not), which the latter is what I thought you had meant when I read your statement in whatever other thread that was.

 

[huntnful]

No, or at least not what I was talking about there.


The first thing, is yes- not cleaning does seem to keep the throat condition more stable over the total rounds fired- I mean that COAL changes do not need to be tweaked as the barrel wears to keep precision/zero stable. Whether that is due to carbon building up and “coating” the throat, I do not know. No- the carbon does not keep building up until it obscures the bore- that’s BS. In hundreds of barrels, when we stopped cleaning, usable barrel life remained the same and almost universally went up.

Second, is “stable bore condition”. The largest difference in bore condition is from dirty to clean. Then each successive shot is less and less variable from the last. I.E., from shot #50 say, to clean and shot #1 is a lot of difference. From shot 988 to shot 989 there is zero functional difference.






Yes. At the very end of the barrels life (I use precision over what is acceptable- usually over 1.75 MOA for general hunting guns), you may see a POI shift. So for a 22CM for instance- from around 80-150 rounds to well over 1,000 (+/-) rounds the zero is static.





That’s correct. But it’s relative. A 6 UM has a sub 1,000 round barrel life- it has that same barrel life whether they are cleaned or not; however, in all that we are seeing- the guys not cleaning are getting longer usable life from their barrels. But the 6 UM, at 500 to 600 rounds I am starting to watch the barrel as I know it’s getting close. On the other hand, with a 308 I don’t care at all how many rounds it gets on it- 10,000 rounds doesn’t scare me, nor cause worry if precision is still acceptable.

Do you add powder or just continually correct data as the throat erodes and velocity begins to drop from the original load?

Also something shitty with the “over bores”, monitoring and chasing the speed loss over time.

 

[Formidilosus]

Do you add powder or just continually correct data as the throat erodes and velocity begins to drop from the original load?

For the most part MV loss hasn’t been a thing generally. When it does drop, it’s right at the end of the life anyways it seems. Normally it’s stable, and then in not many rounds there is a noticeable MV decline. Generally that results in pulling the barrel because it isn’t predictable anymore.

It also depends. One of my current 6.5cm barrels is approx 4,500 rounds +/-, and MV has stable the whole time- it’s just now a 1.9 to 2.0 MOA rifle instead of a 1.3 MOA gun.

 

[HighUintas]

For the most part MV loss hasn’t been a thing generally. When it does drop, it’s right at the end of the life anyways it seems. Normally it’s stable, and then in not many rounds there is a noticeable MV decline. Generally that results in pulling the barrel because it isn’t predictable anymore.

It also depends. One of my current 6.5cm barrels is approx 4,500 rounds +/-, and MV has stable the whole time- it’s just now a 1.9 to 2.0 MOA rifle instead of a 1.3 MOA gun.

Along with the functional data tracking you do for all your rifles, do you also keep track of anything related to the brass if it's a cartridge you're reloading the same cases for?

Something I've been trying to figure out is how much impact the change of the case typically has on a given load's poi and speed. If you only reload a case 3-4 times, I'd expect it to not matter. But I like to stretch my case cost as far as possible, so things like web growth and case volume eventually come into play but I don't know if it really makes a difference. I think the web growth can impact pressure, or at least pressure signs. With one load, it functioned great with no pressure signs until I hit 3-4 reloads, then I got intermittent ejector swipe and bolt lift. The only difference I could find was web diameter growth.

If case "drift" can influence poi and speed, I may opt for the cheapest brass and discard it after 3 reloads.

@huntnful maybe you can track web diameter of some of your cases with speed/poi? I'm guessing with your super hard brass you may not see much. Peterson has a tendency to grow, which is what I experienced that with

 

[Formidilosus]

Along with the functional data tracking you do for all your rifles, do you also keep track of anything related to the brass if it's a cartridge you're reloading the same cases for?

Something I've been trying to figure out is how much impact the change of the case typically has on a given load's poi and speed. If you only reload a case 3-4 times, I'd expect it to not matter. But I like to stretch my case cost as far as possible, so things like web growth and case volume eventually come into play but I don't know if it really makes a difference. I think the web growth can impact pressure, or at least pressure signs. With one load, it functioned great with no pressure signs until I hit 3-4 reloads, then I got intermittent ejector swipe and bolt lift. The only difference I could find was web diameter growth.

If case "drift" can influence poi and speed, I may opt for the cheapest brass and discard it after 3 reloads.

I do not mix brass in loads except for 223- it absolutely will change pressure and velocity. As well, pressure increase from new unfired brass, to once fired isn’t uncommon if the initial load on unfired brass was at max.


I reload brass 3-4 times, maybe 5 and leave it- usually it gets lost by 3-4 reloads. I’m not interested in chasing brass or futzing. Hornady, Winchester, Federal, Stareline, etc. It all works.

 

[huntnful]

For the most part MV loss hasn’t been a thing generally. When it does drop, it’s right at the end of the life anyways it seems. Normally it’s stable, and then in not many rounds there is a noticeable MV decline. Generally that results in pulling the barrel because it isn’t predictable anymore.

It also depends. One of my current 6.5cm barrels is approx 4,500 rounds +/-, and MV has stable the whole time- it’s just now a 1.9 to 2.0 MOA rifle instead of a 1.3 MOA gun.

Appreciate the feedback. It definitely happens extremely fast at the end of the barrel life for sure.

My info isn’t super solid because I hardly ever shoot one bullet, one powder, one charge weight over the life of the barrel. Always testing random shit.

Recently had a load with H1000 at 3160fps, then tested 70 rounds with N570. Then went back to my original H1000 loaded ammo to find it went down to 3110fps.

Apparently 91gr. N570 down a 7mm bore does some serious damage lol.

H1000 load still hammered, so I just corrected the MV data and shot it for the season.

 

[huntnful]

Along with the functional data tracking you do for all your rifles, do you also keep track of anything related to the brass if it's a cartridge you're reloading the same cases for?

Something I've been trying to figure out is how much impact the change of the case typically has on a given load's poi and speed. If you only reload a case 3-4 times, I'd expect it to not matter. But I like to stretch my case cost as far as possible, so things like web growth and case volume eventually come into play but I don't know if it really makes a difference. I think the web growth can impact pressure, or at least pressure signs. With one load, it functioned great with no pressure signs until I hit 3-4 reloads, then I got intermittent ejector swipe and bolt lift. The only difference I could find was web diameter growth.

If case "drift" can influence poi and speed, I may opt for the cheapest brass and discard it after 3 reloads.

@huntnful maybe you can track web diameter of some of your cases with speed/poi? I'm guessing with your super hard brass you may not see much. Peterson has a tendency to grow, which is what I experienced that with

I’ll measure some brass for you for sure!! I have virgin, once fired, and twice fired pieces. I’ll get back to you!

It also has to do with whether or not your die is actually sizing the base of the case enough. Or is the chamber design allows the base of the case to get fat enough for your die to adequately size it for multiple firings

 

[Formidilosus]

Recently had a load with H1000 at 3160fps, then tested 70 rounds with N570. Then went back to my original H1000 loaded ammo to find it went down to 3110fps.

Apparently 91gr. N570 down a 7mm bore does some serious damage lol.

H1000 load still hammered, so I just corrected the MV data and shot it for the season.

Ha. N570 will change some stuff.

 

[Okie_Poke]

Recently had a load with H1000 at 3160fps, then tested 70 rounds with N570. Then went back to my original H1000 loaded ammo to find it went down to 3110fps.

Apparently 91gr. N570 down a 7mm bore does some serious damage lol.

Ha. N570 will change some stuff.

Probably a dumb question, but is this a thing? What’s happening here? Do all powders do this or just some of them?

 

[Formidilosus]

Probably a dumb question, but is this a thing? What’s happening here? Do all powders do this or just some of them?

Some powders burn hotter/wear throats faster. Some Vihtavuori, RL26, etc do it.