Tent design

[realunlucky]

Nice to not the edge in your face that's usable space to me

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[colonel00]

I toyed with this idea as well but a little differently. Basically I was going to sew a zipper or verlcro around the bottom edge of my SL5. I could then add in as necessary a bug net or solid skirt or leave it with nothing at all.

But, that was modifying an existing shelter, not building a new one from scratch.

 

[Beendare]

I still maintain it is largely a psychological difference and not a practical one.

Tipis of equal height and equal roof angle will have the same usable space and weigh the same regardless if one has a small vertical wall and one doesn't.

The only difference is that you can SEE the unused space without the wall, and you need a ton more guylines with the sidewall.

Well it seems we agree to disagree. Of course its akin to Monday Morning QB'ing here...just sharing my take.

Raising these tipis up- made all the difference to me in usable space when it comes to real world experience with these tipis; sitting up, having your sleeping bag close to the wall with condensation, etc. Then there is the advantage of the venting and convection currents the short wall gives you.

Heres a diagram though it doesn't truly illustrate the issues I've had with this perimeter space. This is the same dimensions of my old SL-5. I always found myself and my bag into that triangle. In reality, that perimeter had much less space than the 1 foot from the perimeter as shown here as 9 1/4"....more like 6".... I think due to stretch and pitch.


My MM QB take; The tipi with the catenary cut SL-5's, Tigoat [concave walls] does a better job of tightening the tipi by design....no doubt their reasoning. ....but then it leaves you with less space on the perimeter. Beentheredonethat. Sure you can try to utilize that space but you can't argue the fact stuff in that space will get soaked due to condensation rolling down.
Heres an actual of my old SL5 in Co unit 76 at 10,700'. That high mtn cold air at night made it a condensation nightmare.


Interesting to note that tying off the straight wall tipis and the catenary designs is different and the straight wall tipis benefit from a straight pull follwing the line of the seam to the ground while the Cat cut tipis you can pull them outward.

I toyed with this idea as well but a little differently. Basically I was going to sew a zipper or verlcro around the bottom edge of my SL5. I could then add in as necessary a bug net or solid skirt or leave it with nothing at all.

But, that was modifying an existing shelter, not building a new one from scratch.

Good idea Brad and I think it would really help make that SL5 a better structure. I was going to go with velcro on mine...then changed it mid stream. I think my next will be sewn mosquito netting around the entire perimeter with some velcro in sections at the top edge of the netting so I can add some solid wall panels - appx 50/50. I will be using the light version [next design] in early season so I want just about the entire thing vented.

 

[cvandervort]

I love this idea....I drew up a similar add-on to try with my mountainsmith LT. That extra small vertical wall would really help make it more useable.

Thanks for sharing.


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[406]

Well it seems we agree to disagree. Of course its akin to Monday Morning QB'ing here...just sharing my take.

Raising these tipis up- made all the difference to me in usable space when it comes to real world experience with these tipis; sitting up, having your sleeping bag close to the wall with condensation, etc. Then there is the advantage of the venting and convection currents the short wall gives you.

Heres a diagram though it doesn't truly illustrate the issues I've had with this perimeter space. This is the same dimensions of my old SL-5. I always found myself and my bag into that triangle. In reality, that perimeter had much less space than the 1 foot from the perimeter as shown here as 9 1/4"....more like 6".... I think due to stretch and pitch.
View attachment 59122

My MM QB take; The tipi with the catenary cut SL-5's, Tigoat [concave walls] does a better job of tightening the tipi by design....no doubt their reasoning. ....but then it leaves you with less space on the perimeter. Beentheredonethat. Sure you can try to utilize that space but you can't argue the fact stuff in that space will get soaked due to condensation rolling down.
Heres an actual of my old SL5 in Co unit 76 at 10,700'. That high mtn cold air at night made it a condensation nightmare.
View attachment 59128

Interesting to note that tying off the straight wall tipis and the catenary designs is different and the straight wall tipis benefit from a straight pull follwing the line of the seam to the ground while the Cat cut tipis you can pull them outward.




Good idea Brad and I think it would really help make that SL5 a better structure. I was going to go with velcro on mine...then changed it mid stream. I think my next will be sewn mosquito netting around the entire perimeter with some velcro in sections at the top edge of the netting so I can add some solid wall panels - appx 50/50. I will be using the light version [next design] in early season so I want just about the entire thing vented.

Hate to make a wall of quotes but on topic with wall tie outs...

If you look at the SO Courthouse rear tie out, a triangle of fabric side to side, it really seems to add shape and stability. Been toying with incorporating this in my design. Would obviously add a little weight but might be worth it.

Thoughts?

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[Beendare]

My optimal design

So just for the heck of it I will post up my version of optimal design....critiques welcomed....and you are welcome to use my design
as long as its your own use, non commercial/ not offered for sale.

As with any design, you need to start with criteria, heres mine;
Spacious for 2 tall guys, or myself, my wife and my dog
UL and compact...but also utilitarian for hunts and such
can handle strong winds
mitigates condensation
easy setup

The tradeoffs on size are tricky. I wanted to be able to stand [I'm 6'4"] but i on't spend a lot of time standing around in my last tipi so the addl height of 8'6"+ is overkill and it makes for some long roof triangles [10'8" long]

I think an 8 or 10 sided tipi is optimal for this size/type structure as it also makes good use of the 58" wide fabric [two roof triangles per piece] in my case the 11' 6" footprint is pushing it for 8 sides. No worries, more sides = a more aerodynamic shape that is stronger...so i went with 10 panels.


more sewing- sure, but once you get the hang of folding and sewing its pretty easy really.

If you can't read the notes, just PM and I can email this out if you want it. I can also email the Sketchup file too if that helps. Base is 11'6" point to point assuming the roof triangles end at 12" above the ground [my idea of optimal] I'm going to sew in a perimeter of netting...then add velcro in appx 3' section alternating around the perimeter so I can add solid fabric wall sections.

Calcing out roof panels I would probably order 16-17 yds....using appx 14 yds [after waste] or so. 2 roof panels per [appx] 9' sections, need 5 sections, 15 yds min, then with waste its about 14 yds, 1.3oz fabric at RSBTR =18.2 ounces [with the heavier fabric- a serious option, its 10 oz more]...just over a pound for the roof. I should be all in at appx 2 1/2#-3# or so with stove jack and walls.

I'm still pondering fabric....its a winter project.

 

[Beendare]

NH, heres your pyramid

as promised....off the drawing you posted. You will have to figure out how to manage fabric you choose with seams....
10' base pyramid, 7' tall, corner roof seams are 9'3 5/16" long, walls 12" tall, top angle 65.3 deg, bottom angles 57.35 deg
note; model is 5' 9" tall for scale

 

[William Hanson (live2hunt)]

What advantage does that have over just continuing the walls down at the same pitch other than a smaller footprint? In production it would cost more, it will take more time to build, it will be a weaker product, and it will weigh more than a standard tipi or mid. That is why I abandoned it. Vertical surfaces are a bad idea an ultra-light backpacking shelters.

Live2hunt custom shelters

 

[colonel00]

Why would it weigh more? I haven't done exact calculations but it should be less material needed for the vertical walls then for extending the walls at an angle. Granted, you then have another seam to sew probably so that can add weight. Just curious.

 

[William Hanson (live2hunt)]

Why would it weigh more? I haven't done exact calculations but it should be less material needed for the vertical walls then for extending the walls at an angle. Granted, you then have another seam to sew probably so that can add weight. Just curious.

Extra stakes, extra guy outs (mostly on tipi as the don't need it), extra seams depending on size and a few other factor, more fabric again depending on how it's done. It all adds up.

Live2hunt custom shelters

 

[Beendare]

Why would it weigh more? I haven't done exact calculations but it should be less material needed for the vertical walls then for extending the walls at an angle. Granted, you then have another seam to sew probably so that can add weight. Just curious.

^Agreed. Fabric? Heck, IMO these fabrics are so Ultra light a little bit of fabric doesn't hurt ya, its poles, and hardware that adds weight. IMO, A couple extra ounces in your shelter is a poor place to scrimp- though of course we are all built different in that regard.

I spend a fair amount of time in these shelters and [forgive me Brad!] that SL5 drove me nuts. The design with walls/vents solves a few of the complaints I had with the SL5- those are the advantages [i listed previously] If i'm living in one of these for 4 weeks a year....i don't want it to be a pain in the ass..

Sure the straight tipis are easier to sew....probably why we see so many mnfrs banging these out. With the right double needle machine set up for this......I bet they only have 3 hours in these....maybe less. What a deal for $800......

 

[colonel00]

No skin off my back. I sold the SL5 for the Cimarron a while ago. Mostly I was just talking about ways to "improve" existing tents versus creating and sewing your own. To me, with an existing shelter, just sewing on a skirt of solid or net is a simple solution that allows you to increase space in the tent and increase ventilation. Without a lot of mods, you wouldn't be able to move the stake points on an existing shelter so by just sewing on a skirt, you can just run extensions on the stake points and achieve the goal.

Now, when designing a shelter from scratch, I can't disagree with the idea that the vertical walls probably cause more problems then they solve.

One other thing to remember, when you do have condensation, it usually runs down the side to the bottom of the wall. With a vertical wall, this condensation will hit that wall and then drop or run down it. If you are right next to the wall, you might get a bit wet.

 

[Beendare]

No skin off my back. I sold the SL5 for the Cimarron a while ago. Mostly I was just talking about ways to "improve" existing tents versus creating and sewing your own. To me, with an existing shelter, just sewing on a skirt of solid or net is a simple solution that allows you to increase space in the tent and increase ventilation. Without a lot of mods, you wouldn't be able to move the stake points on an existing shelter so by just sewing on a skirt, you can just run extensions on the stake points and achieve the goal.

Now, when designing a shelter from scratch, I can't disagree with the idea that the vertical walls probably cause more problems then they solve.

One other thing to remember, when you do have condensation, it usually runs down the side to the bottom of the wall. With a vertical wall, this condensation will hit that wall and then drop or run down it. If you are right next to the wall, you might get a bit wet.

i think your comment of sewing a perimeter to an existing tipi is right on the money.

Re walls; i never got amount of condensation in my tipi as i did with the SL5...even camped over a grin of alders, brush and grass to keep us out of the soggy Alaskan tundra. We could hear water running under the tent in one spot- not good. We did have condensation it that spot....but for whatever reason.....there was very little on the walls. i was toying with the idea of making the walls from breathable fabric since not much rain hits the wall due to the small eve [current one 1.1 oz waterproof stuff]

I think my next will have the non waterproof wall fabric.

i thought about a structure somewhat like the Sawtooth....too much thinking when it comes to sewing....maybe someday for a solo shelter. These tipis are so easy once you get the hang of 'fold and sew'

 

[NHBacon]

Roll hem or just a fold and sew twice?

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[Beendare]

I just fold both layers of fabric twice at 5/8”. Probably blasphemy in pro sewing circles but its easy...no inside out, cutting different lengths, matching different patterns or lengths.

I cut all pieces the same (from a paper pattern of the piece) adding 1 1/4” seam bias per side, iron pieces together with heat seal hem tape, then fold and sew

 

[acmckeage03]

I'm like a kid in a candy store here as a newby ripstop DIY'er. You all publishing your ideas, trial and errors has me spinning in a whirlpool of information. Just need to buckle down and go with one of these awesome designs for my own experience. One question, does the parallel double stitch work better than a zig-zag?

 

[William Hanson (live2hunt)]

I'm like a kid in a candy store here as a newby ripstop DIY'er. You all publishing your ideas, trial and errors has me spinning in a whirlpool of information. Just need to buckle down and go with one of these awesome designs for my own experience. One question, does the parallel double stitch work better than a zig-zag?

Depends on the application

Live2hunt custom shelters

 

[William Hanson (live2hunt)]

I just fold both layers of fabric twice at 5/8”. Probably blasphemy in pro sewing circles but its easy...no inside out, cutting different lengths, matching different patterns or lengths.

I cut all pieces the same (from a paper pattern of the piece) adding 1 1/4” seam bias per side, iron pieces together with heat seal hem tape, then fold and sew

That actually works pretty well but it makes your seems off center which on a tipi or mid doesn't matter but on some other types of shelter builds it will need to be accounted for

Live2hunt custom shelters

 

[Beendare]

That actually works pretty well but it makes your seems off center which on a tipi or mid doesn't matter but on some other types of shelter builds it will need to be accounted for

^ Good tip thx.

I can see where the seam I used would be an issue with something else...but with tipis working in one direction its super easy.

I'm now considering a UL 2 man tent....I'm trying to decide whether to abandon the inherit strength of the tipi structure for a small amount of weight savings in fabric. I think the big weight savings for me is the pole. I rarely camp above timberline and i can almost always cut a pole.

I can see where the elongated tent designs excel at weight to space ratio...no need to have a lot of height on one end where your feet will go....but then doing some quick calcs on weight savings. You do get a savings with walls that guyout...it doesn't appear to be a big factor. I'm leaning towards a semi tipi that is elongated with a netting perimeter....though its going to be more difficult to build a pattern...vs sewing all the same size pieces.

Everything is a tradeoff....thus its no wonder we all come at this conundrum from a different perspective.

 

[NHBacon]

So I've decided to pull the pin on this shit show and order my material. I do have questions. I'm hanging with the four sides pyramid design with no bottom skirt. Going with the 1.1 oz silpoly from RSBTR it has 58 usable inches. I'm planning on using two pieces to a side. Off cuff questimation after sewing would leave me with a side that is roughly 9'4"? Additionally I was grabbing 16 yards? If any of you fellas with sketchup could tell me how long that vertical cut would need to be to give me a 7' interior height that would be awesome. Thank you again for discussing.

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