Supplied Drop Camp Tipping Etiquette?

[Marble]

But that’s their core job duties, which you’re paying for.


Quality service should be an expectation, not “earned” through tipping.

It's just like servers at a restaurant. Their job is to bring your food. But some have the ability to make the experience so much more pleasurable that they deserve a great tip.

I have spoken with a few outfitters that have said if a client doesn't leave a tip, they won't let them come back. I don't blame them.

I have had experiences with guides that did a crappy job. I told them they did, and I left no tip. Never went back or contacted them again

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[Marble]

Thanks for the input. For clarification, this is a five day fall hunt. I won’t need resupply or checking on. The advertised service is for transport into and out of a supplied camp with the meat haul included, if necessary. We are paying $3700 per hunter. I’m not looking for a free lunch on anyone. This place requires horses and I don’t have access to horses, so I’ll gladly pay the fee that the outfitter sets.

I’m still conflicted on kicking the outfitter another $1000+. The worker bees, that’s a no brainer. But the outfitter has an exclusive use permit. He literally has a monopoly on the area. It’s not like I can shop his price. So it’s hard to believe the proprietor isn’t setting a price they feel is worth their time and investment.

I’m open to being wrong on this one. I’m just not convinced thus far that this service warrants another 15-20% to the outfitter.

I would not be tipping the Main outfitter. I probably stated that incorrectly earlier. I'm talking about the guys riding in and out of the woods, packing supplies, meat etc.

After your experience you'll probably have a good idea on what each guy deserves.

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[MuleyFever]

Keep in mind there was work done before you got there and there will be plenty more after you are gone. It’s not just about transporting you game in and out.

Tip your packer! It doesn’t have to be a percentage. Come up with a fair amount. At least $300. More if it’s a long ride AND if he does you any special favors. If he has to pack them out for you another $200. If your Hunt sucks don’t blame him either. It’s not his fault. Quite frankly it’s usually the fault of the Hunter. If I ride into your camp in the middle of the day and you are sitting inside the tent, telling me you can’t find elk you will not like my reply!

Remember a packer isn’t just a packer. He’s full of information. Be sure to talk to him when you get to camp and get as much information about the elk as you can.

This is all a known part of the hunt. Why aren't they getting paid for this from their employer? Why should the hunter be expected to pay extra for the basic necessity of moving gear/hunters after paying the outfitter for that exact service?

 

[Indian Summer]

This is all a known part of the hunt. Why aren't they getting paid for this from their employer? Why should the hunter be expected to pay extra for the basic necessity of moving gear/hunters after paying the outfitter for that exact service?

See the post from Bigantlergetter. Careful what you wish for. People have no clue…. None, how many hours a guide works. That might be a solution for waitresses but if guides made $20/hr the cost of hunts would be out of reach for most hunters. It would be one more factor making hunting a rich man’s game. For sure!

As far as tipping the outfitter goes…. Not unless he or she personally guides you. You don’t tip the person who owns the restaurant.

 

[Read1t48]

The seemingly increasing awkwardness of hunting costs, tips, etiquette, etc. is one reason why I personally will probably never book a guided hunt. In my opinion, the above paradigms associated with tips, customer expectations, etc, is damaging multiple industries including the guided hunt market.

Some have already mentioned it but the medical field is a service field. A doctor can spend an hour with you. And the next doctor can spend 20 minutes with you and be very impersonal. When have you ever tipped YOUR doctor? Is it because you assume they make enough to live on or the cost of your insurance is already absurd? Did you tip the medical assistant that brought you to your room and did most of the prep work behind the scenes? The doctor may have been up at 3AM doing hospital rounds (feeding hay, prepping saddles, and brushing horses) before coming to clinic to see you at 2PM (the packout) already a 12 hour day. The janitor, who you passed on the first floor before getting into the elevator, cleaned your exam room so well, you will not get the flu from the patient that was in the room prior to you. We could debate endless examples of service industries that provide an experience and service to customers where tipping is unheard of in THAT industry.

I owned and hunted with a string of horses for years. All the behind the scenes descriptions outline the job duties of a wrangler and guide. It should be built into the cost without the hunter feeling like they have to tip for every rainstorm and rocky pass endured by the crew. Without trying to sound rude, it’s THEIR job to do these things, including conversing with customers, being polite, sharing tips for success, etc, on the ride in and out. Service industry employees still have job expectations. If there is a tipping expectation - and there clearly is in some outfits when you read things like, ‘If you don’t tip, you’re not invited back’ or ‘don’t assume a good experience on the next booking’ — it should be clearly spelled out in the booking contract. (+10% tip to guide, 5% to cook; more can be given at hunter’s discretion).

Tipping in MANY industries is getting out of hand. I’m not alone in these feelings.

Best of luck to all this hunting season.

 

[rayporter]

if you go "above and beyond" what i paid for, you can expect a tip.

and yeah, i have my own string, so i know about the sick horses at midnight and the vet bills and flat tires when hauling, etc.

 

[BigDuckHunter]

See the post from Bigantlergetter. Careful what you wish for. People have no clue…. None, how many hours a guide works. That might be a solution for waitresses but if guides made $20/hr the cost of hunts would be out of reach for most hunters. It would be one more factor making hunting a rich man’s game. For sure!

As far as tipping the outfitter goes…. Not unless he or she personally guides you. You don’t tip the person who owns the restaurant.

So your solution for keeping hunting affordable is for people to pay more than the hunt costs? It seems like either way the hunt is going to/should cost more than what you currently charge for it. I just think it makes more sense and would avoid awkwardness/disappointment/frustration on all sides if you charged what you want to make/pay the guides.

I have a buddy that owns an auto shop. I bet his guys work more hours in a year than any guide/outfitter. But they don’t need tips to survive because he pays them enough to make what they want for the work being done and then charges his customers accordingly. If, as a customer, you can’t afford that price then you probably shouldn’t own a car (or at least take it there for work being done).

I totally understand that a guide or packer can definitely make or break a hunt. I think it does make sense to tip someone generously for an outstanding experience. But if you as a business owner expect the customer to be paying your employees salary because you’re not paying them enough to live, that sounds like a recipe for disappointment and frustration all around.

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

I understand where everyone is coming from, I’m not a tip is or else guy. We’re a relatively small operation. I have myself and a full year round employee, a cook that works on call for trips, a guide that works on call, and a couple packers that work when they can. Most the people we set out to hire have full time jobs and want to use their vacation time to go guide.

Lots of packers, guides, wranglers are self employed that love hunting. Some call me and tell me their slow days/weeks and we get them some extra cash.
Outfitting is a completely different industry than most think, if outfitters paid hourly, plus OT, a 7 guided day hunt would most likely be a 144 hour work week. Pay the taxes on that overtime. If we charged for every thing then drop camp hints would be $5000 and fully guided would be $12,000. We would price our selves right out of business… now I understand that guys are paying for a drop camp and every outfitter tries to give you as many amenities as possible, but you’d be surprised as to what some guys expect on a back country wall tent hunt.

So here’s always been my thing, tip
If you’d like, and tip what you think is fair. If you don’t want to tip then that’s fine to. If you think the price for the trip was to high for what you got tell the owner, if you thought it was to low (which nobody will ever say that) then tell them.

I know in CO our outfitters association has had constant talks about industry wide price increases but when non resident tags go up $59 a year. Plus everything else rises many outfitters are several
Generations it’s like the ag industry were at the mercy of the buyer…some outfitters cater to the rich only and charge accordingly, lots of us that do drop camps are doing it for the average Joes. It’s not as much a get rich deal as it is a love of the life. Tipping is just a bonus and that’s what we consider it not a requirement. I started adding extra fees onto my hunts to cover things like coming to camp every day especially if I’m resupplying and you forgot to tell me you were out of toilet paper and I gotta come back. Especially when I check in with you the night before and ask for a list of disposables you feel you’re going to need. Or my favorite I forgot my bullets in the truck, and I’m riding intonthe mid morning to make sure you can hunt opening morning. But it’s sometimes hard to tell guys even with a contract that they are getting charged another $250 to come back in for extra stuff. Now if it’s my fault I’m not going to charge and that’s out of my bottom dollar.

I agree tipping culture has got out of hand a restaraunt in my hometown has no waitstaff, you order, then go pick up your food, and bus your own table and they want tips for putting my order into the system and pressing send. But people still tip cause it’s a restaurant and that’s standard. When I charge credit cards for final payment I don’t even ask if they want to tip cause it’s before the hunt.


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[Indian Summer]

Oh Lord. Comparing a doctor to a guide. Tips for rainstorms? A little extreme on both ends don’t you think?

One thing I never agreed with is tipping by percentage. Let’s say a guided hunt in the mountains compared to a private land hunt.


Think about the work involved in a back country, Hunt. I won’t make a mile long list but suffice it to say the preparation for a private ranch Hunt is nothing compared to that. Every single day living and hunting in the mountains is much harder than staying at a lodge or even a tent camp where you can drive a vehicle to. Horses versus no horses.

But the private land hunt might sell for $15,000 while the public land Hunt only sells for 7500. 10% would be either $1500 or $750. That system doesn’t work for me. Instead, I am paying a guy for his time. For his attitude and integrity. Shall I would just look at what he did all week and how he went about it and come up with a flat rate based on my own opinion. I enjoy tipping people who did a good job for me. We might stay in touch and become friends. It happens all the time.

I would probably tip the harder working guide more. But there’s no question that Hunter’s tip a lot of the time based on their success. Also, based on their own personal income. So the way it is private land guides probably do better when it comes to tips.

So to me, the question is a lot more simple. How much should I tip a guide on a seven day hunt. The only thing I would specify is whether it was an easy or tough hunt. Think about sheep guides. It’s a labor of love. But those guys certainly deserve more compensation than a guy who wakes up in his own bed every morning and picks you up in a pick up truck.

One more thing. In my experience, the people who work hard for a living tend to relate more to what gods do. I’ve had millionaires in camp who were pretty unappreciative all week and barely tipped. I did a hunt once for six guys from California. The one brag about his multimillion dollar contract doing plastic surgery in Los Angeles. At the end of the week, his friends pitched in and gave the guy a tip and said trust me he isn’t going to give you shit.

Guides are usually pretty good people. If a guy came out who was a farmer and tipped me $500 at the end of the week I would appreciate it just as much as I did getting a $1000 tip from a doctor or lawyer. As long as they were both decent, respectful people I wouldn’t give either one a second thought. To me, their intentions and level of appreciation would be the same.

Like some other industries guiding has always been one where the worker bees income is based in large part on tips. Like it or not we will never change that. If you don’t like that, it’s perfectly understandable. But you probably shouldn’t book a guided hunt if that’s the case.

Screw that anyway right! Save your money and go DIY! It’s way more fun and rewarding. If you kill a bull, treat yourself and your partners to dinner and drinks in town!

 

[Jaden Bales]

Thanks for the input. For clarification, this is a five day fall hunt. I won’t need resupply or checking on. The advertised service is for transport into and out of a supplied camp with the meat haul included, if necessary. We are paying $3700 per hunter. I’m not looking for a free lunch on anyone. This place requires horses and I don’t have access to horses, so I’ll gladly pay the fee that the outfitter sets.

I’m still conflicted on kicking the outfitter another $1000+. The worker bees, that’s a no brainer. But the outfitter has an exclusive use permit. He literally has a monopoly on the area. It’s not like I can shop his price. So it’s hard to believe the proprietor isn’t setting a price they feel is worth their time and investment.

I’m open to being wrong on this one. I’m just not convinced thus far that this service warrants another 15-20% to the outfitter.

I am a guide and I always figure if I get a 10% tip, I'm happy. Of course, I'm trying to work my butt off for more than that and love it if I work my tail off and earn a big tip.

I've never seen someone actually tip the outfitter themselves. So maybe a little (think 5% cash) for the wrangler who brings you in and 5% for the wrangler who takes you out. They'd probably be pumped with an extra $350-400 per trip ($175-200 per hunter per trip).

 

[Indian Summer]

Big AntlerGetter very well said. But I would never say “if you don’t want to tip that’s fine”. Everyone know it works. If a person can save our flat out just pay for a multi thousand dollar hunt he can swing a tip. Do unto others…

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

Big AntlerGetter very well said. But I would never say “if you don’t want to tip that’s fine”. Everyone know it works. If a person can save our flat out just pay for a multi thousand dollar hunt he can swing a tip. Do unto others…

Well it’s just one of those things…. Guiding and outfitting has always been a tipping industry. Like said lots of guys tip on success. Every guide would love 100% success, but in my area it’s OTC and public land it’s just not feasible. Have we done it sure have. Last year my outfit put 28 rifle hunters in the mountain for 2 seasons, there was 28 bull tags. We did 20% success and 45% opportunity. 70% of those hunters was their first western big game hunt. They did drop camps because it was affordable for them. Between me and my packers we made $400 total in tips, we didn’t complain it’s becoming the new normal. I also feed my employees on top of their wages, and provide housing when they are working. That’s huge in my area where a studio is going for $2000 a month IF you can find one. Average packer pay is $125/day plus room and board. Some days you work 16 hours some days it’s 4. We ride every single day of a season then typically every day between seasons to move camps, take down camps, fix camps etc. it’s 3 months of labor, and we’re like the postman, rain sleet shine we ride.

I don’t think many understand that many outfitters aren’t rich, ya we might look rich cause we have big trailers and nice trucks but we need that for business. I agree with private land outfitters charging the big bucks they also have less stuff and hoops to jump through as a public land outfitters. They have private land leases but higher success and don’t have to deal with USFS, blm, they can avoid insurance requirements, don’t have to be licensed as an outfitters.


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[TrinityAlps]

So let’s say outfitters added gratuity into the price of the hunt, then paid normal hourly wages for a professional trade. Average cost for a drop camp is around $2000,

You show up at 8am to be packed in, the packer has been there since 5:30AM, you have to pack up all ur gear drive to a trailhead, packer has to drop you off come back down, unsaddle, feed, the go home, depending he’s probably not done until 7pm…. 13.5 hour day at $25/hour? $337.50 for 1 day, then he resupplies you mid week, that’s maybe a 9 hour day- $225, and then your pack out another $337.50 altogether for 1 packed it’s $900. What if you kill an elk? That’s probably another $225 day for each elk they have to pack out, 2 guys kill that’s another $550, total employee wages could be $900-$1450. That’s a pretty big cut into a profit. Then add in the camp setup and take down, which is hopefully 1 day a piece for 2-3 guys, that’s another 12 hour day X2-3 guys. That’s $1200-1800, which you could figure can be divided between all the drop camp hunters for the camp. Then you got farrier, disposables costs, feed, vet care, etc. so sure group of 4 guys can be $8000 for a week, but may also double your employees to pack them in and out. How many guys are gonna want to pay $3000 each for a drop camp? Plus their tag fees, travel etc.

Many outfitters haven’t raised their prices in 10 years due to the constant rise in tag prices and trying to remain profitable without gouging the hunters. Hay prices go up drop camps stay the same, tags go up prices stay the same, this is why many guides, packers, wranglers don’t make hourly wages and are on the lower end of the pay scale. Outfitters would love to be able to pay more, but this industry has always been tip reliable…. And these guys are doing a little more than making you a double mocha espresso and writing ur name on a cup. You’re trusting them with 1000’s of dollars of gear and ur life technically and they’re still giving you 110% even if they are only making like $150 a day. Every outfitters is different, and their pay is different. But these packers probably know more about the area than anyone else to and have real world experience there, better than any app you pay for has that’s for sure.


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You make a pretty compelling argument here to raise your prices.

 

[manitou1]

See the post from Bigantlergetter. Careful what you wish for. People have no clue…. None, how many hours a guide works. That might be a solution for waitresses but if guides made $20/hr the cost of hunts would be out of reach for most hunters. It would be one more factor making hunting a rich man’s game. For sure!

As far as tipping the outfitter goes…. Not unless he or she personally guides you. You don’t tip the person who owns the restaurant.

I was under the impression that you have no guide on a drop camp hunt.
They go in and basically set up a tent camp for you and you are on your own: finding animals, breaking them down and packing them out... at least back to camp.
I see no way I would pay 20% tip for that.

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

I was under the impression that you have no guide on a drop camp hunt.
They go in and basically set up a tent camp for you and you are on your own: finding animals, breaking them down and packing them out... at least back to camp.
I see no way I would pay 20% tip for that.

There’s alot more to it than that. Most outfitters have resupply, many also give you coordinates of the area, I provide feeding areas, wallows, bedding areas, historical harvest locations, pack out from a horse accessible spot, hauling to processor or taxidermist, cool storage. Camos gave wood stoves, propane camp chef cook stoves, disposables (paper towels, plates, tp, propane) cots, pads, chairs, cooking supplies, latrine, split wood. Ya there’s no guide on camp but bet those packers know about where the elk are or should be. Your success is based on you, I’ve had guys send me coordinates on elk and I’ve gave them their best possible option to access them. Drop camps are typically DIY with outfitters support.

If we figured 20% for 4 hunters based on a $2000 hunt that’s $1600, 2 packers in, 2 packers out, 1 packer for resupply. The way I figure those tips is by how many times each person went to camp so $320/trip, if one guy goes in, resupply and out, he would get $960, the other guy would get $640. That is a hell of a tip, most guys are going to tip around 10% and if they harvest that guy might tip more. Like I said before there isn’t an industry standard like there is for waitstaff, 10% still gives those guys a heck of a bonus, which is what a tip is a bonus.

I don’t know about other outfitters but typically a client or group of clients isn’t an hour conversation and ur done. And yes that’s on the owner typically, but in average 10-12 hours a season on the phone with drop camp clients.


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[BigAntlerGetter]

You make a pretty compelling argument here to raise your prices.

Ya it’s pretty compelling, how do you raise prices on clients who booked 3 yrs in advance? How much do you raise it? And if you’re the highest priced outfitter in the region, you’re gonna lose clients. That’s why it would be a region wide price increase. Trust me I’ve thought about raising my prices, less camps booked but more money makes it easier on me and my packers, but that also means less money for my packers as they would be working half the time with half the clients. So sure maybe I double their pay to make up for it, but unless I double my prices I’m not doing any better in the long run.

It’s just like internships, when I interned I got a place to live and my horses fed, and I learned a skill/trade. Now I get interns and they tell me what I’m going to pay them, on top of teaching them. When my brother went to trade school he still had to pay the school to learn the trade. And if you think packing gear is as easy as throw it in the bags and put it on the pack animal you’re mistaken. We manty tarp and lash every single load, I know 10 different hitches for different load types. But common belief is you just throw it in and throw it on, this is why there are so many wrecks a year from people renting horses to pack themselves in. 2 calls a year minimum of lost horses and gear spread all over the trail minimum, cause average joe said it’s not that hard.

Rule of an outfitter is overworked, underpaid and under appreciated. It’s the life. Personally I wouldn’t trade it, and i tell all my employees that “motto”. I’ve worked the tire industry, it’s as simple as pulling tires off and putting them on right.

Guess I’m on a soap box right now, to the OP, tips are heavily appreciated, and just cause I’m an owner operator like most outfitters are if I do all the work myself in a camp for you and you tip me I typically take 20% of what you gave me as my “fun” money and the rest I divy to my employees for their extra work behind the scenes. I’m a bad owner because I don’t pay myself very much, I figure when I have a place to live, and food, that my pay is coming from the business, so tips to me are my fun money myself to. I pay my employees, plus room and board, I get room and board technically, and the rest goes to outfitting and my livestock. I try to be minimal cause I get to spend my entire life in the backcountry that these other guys are paying me to spend a week in. Im also not here to get rich, love my job love my life, small profits on the business are GREAT! But I also get to offer something to guys that otherwise they may never do themselves. So that’s rewarding to.


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[mike.adams.467]

This is all a known part of the hunt. Why aren't they getting paid for this from their employer? Why should the hunter be expected to pay extra for the basic necessity of moving gear/hunters after paying the outfitter for that exact service?

Do you treat the waitress at a restaurant this way? Not really any different. You go out to eat, bringing you food and drinks is expected, right?

 

[Indian Summer]

I almost forgot… the US Forest Service gets 3% right off the top as a user fee based on each day a client is afield. Liability insurance is highest of any industry in the west second only to logging. The USFS also required me to insure my gear. Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks collects a user fee as well and that’s after license renewals.

Before an outfitter even begins to feed your horse and pay those two packers he has already given up a big chunk of what you paid him.

Have you seen the cost of advertising lately? There is a legitimate cost per hunter just to find and book clients.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Drop camps and the like are for folks that can't do DIY. It isn't hard to DIY in the west with a tent on your back, to each his own. That was my first experience in colorado, went with a group of guys and they told me what I needed to bring and so I brought it. Learned on the fly. If you aren't confident in doing it yourself, use your conscience and think if you were in the service providers situation what you might appreciate when the hunt is over based on the amount of work they did so that you didn't have to.