Stock Rental

[HunterEldridge]

How has everyone's experiences been with renting horses for a backcountry hunt? I have always wanted to make a DIY hunt like this just worry about getting on a falsely advertised horse lol.

 

[Bachto]

I have never rented a horse, I have rented Llamas though. I would just find a reputable outfit and maybe ask for some client references and check reviews.

If you aren't familiar with horses I am not sure they are the best to rent. I could see way to many things happen with a horse that just doesn't sound fun. Bucking, kicking, stepping on your foot and they are a lot more work to take care of as far as feeding and water. Llamas were so easy I would do it again in a heart beat if I didn't have some goats I am training up right now. Though you can't ride Llamas they can still pack quite a bit.

 

[HunterEldridge]

Thanks for the input Llamas would be a great option as well how much feed and water did they require?

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

I’ll give you the clint eastwood answer (the good, the bad and the ugly).

I will start it with this many people have gone out and rented horses with 0 issues, or minor issues. Some have had horrific experiences. The biggest things I see (I am an outfitter, I have been packing stock for 20 years) are more dangers to the animals than to the people that are renting them. It’s something that the term “leave it to the professionals” is sometimes better than having an accident. Now I’m not trying to rent horses I don’t rent my stock out, never will. I’m in the business cause I love it, I love packing animals and I love helping people. I know I’ll never get rich outfitting but I enjoy it.

Now here’s some of the good
1. Harvested game can get packed out
2. Your gear isn’t on your back
3. You have a ride in and out
4. More weight more amenities in your camp
5. You can get your stuff in or out in 1 trip
6. Can cover more country cause ur not hiking everywhere

Here’s the bad
1. Horses need feed if you can’t find a good spot to graze them several hours a day or night you gotta bring some in, if the horse hasn’t been on green grass and you are grazing them on it they can founder, or colic. Colic can be fatal if you don’t know how to treat it. I’ve had horses colic on the mountain and lay down in the trail, it’s what they do, 4 hours later of going to get medicine and back horse was in the same spot, took me 30’minutes after an IV shot of banamine to get the horse on its feet and going down the mountain. Most rental companies have an agreement horse dies in your care you owe $3500, that price with the horse market is probably more up to $5000
2. Horses need water, a horse needs water to help digest its food so it’s not a water in the morning and water in the evening.
3. Ever tried to sleep at night with horses tied up to a tree or high line? Every noise wakes you up, you have to check on them make sure they aren’t hanging themselves, have a foot over a lead rope, laid down and can’t get up. How bout getting untied and running back to the trail head? Walking through an electric fence.
4. When ur gone all day hunting you still have a horse or 2 back at camp, few years ago I road into a camp and a guys mule was laying there dead tied to a tree cause it got its leg over the lead rope and fell down. He came back that evening with a note on his tent that said “got to your camp at 9:30AM, ur mule was dead, had its foot over the lead rope, you can see the struggle it had, nothing I could do sorry for ur loss, this has been reported to the USFS” we came back in the next day and the guy was packed out and gone with his mule laying there still 30’ off the trail. It’s actually illegal to not report it.
5. Horses are not go anywhere, they can die to and dangerous areas puts you and them at risk. Most injuries and accidents I’ve seen are people taking their stock into places they shouldn’t have gone
6. If you don’t know how to pack panniers properly, you’re gonna have an accident. Several times I’ve come down the trail to a yard sale and a hunter is wore out cause the saddle slid and the horse spooked and he can’t find it. We’ve found horses stuck in a deadfall from getting spooked and finally getting hung up, shaking, dripping sweat, cut up.
7. Even a minor accident on a horse can be the worst, doing this for this long we have had accidents. Somethings can be avoided, others can’t
8. Basic horsemanship will be a huge help but the more experience the better. Cinch sores, saddle sores, cuts, scrapes, lameness happen. Knowing how to deal with them will help but how do you know when it’s to bad to continue?

The ugly
1. Even very experienced horseman have died, we had one several years ago, they still don’t know what happened but the guys mule came runnin back to camo without him. When his party found him all they could tell was the mule slipped and fell and he hit his head on a rock.
2. How do you know when ur horse is to injured? I had a gentleman come down from a trail one time I had been back for about an hour unloading gear. He came in walking this horse that could barely put weight in one leg, I asked him if I could check it out for him, he said the rental company would be there in 3-4 hours. After checking the horse out we found it had fractured its back leg, the guy had been walking the horse from 8 miles in for 14 hours, I asked if he knew what happened, he said he was trying to get to his elk he shot, and was goin across a rock field when the horse went down. Said he knew that it was dangerous but said he rented the horse to pack the game so he didn’t have to. The rental company got there and took the horse to the vet, they brought him another horse to go get his elk and gear. When he came down he had 150lbs of gear and a whole cow on this poor horses back.
3. Know the weight limits of your stock. They say 20% of a horses weight is what they can carry but there is love weight and dead weight. I keep my stock to about 10% or 150-175lbs of dead weight. We work several months in a row so I try not to go over 150. This also has a distance factor, terrain etc. I’ve seen my biggest mules struggle one 5 miles of hard terrain. Uphill is hard on them but down hill is worse. Knowing how to pack ur gear so it doesn’t slide forwards or backwards. Much like you’d pack your backpack, ur not gonna wanna put the heavy stuff at the top and light stuff at the bottom. Saddle panniers are the worse, you can’t weigh each side to make sure ur even. Lash ropes and manty tarps can keep everything secured in a situation. I’ve always packed my gear based on terrain uphill more weight forward downhill more weight back.

Just trying to give you as much info as possible on all this sometimes the bad outweighs the good. My biggest concern with horse renters is you need to be ur first priority, ur stock next and ur hunt last. I personally usually put my stock ahead of myself, they rely on me to keep them safe.


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[HunterEldridge]

All great information thanks for the reply. Out of curiosity how do horses handle big elevation changes? I live at sea level and have contemplated buying a few horses and possibly bringing my own stock to camp with the wife during the summer or backcountry hunt with friends in the winter. I don't personally know anyone who has done this but i would think that if the horse was in good shape and had a day or so to acclimate this would be doable or am i mistaken?

 

[Bachto]

Thanks for the input Llamas would be a great option as well how much feed and water did they require?

They will eat most things that are green but should have some grass to graze on, not as much as a horse. Also they do well with little water, we would water them at least twice a day though they could get away with once or even no water for a few days. You may to bring some feed with you if you know you are going into an area with little feed but this would just be supplementary.

 

[Ucsdryder]

Only question that matters….do you have experience with horses? If the answer is anything other than “tons” I think horses are a bad idea.

 

[Less]

I’ll give you the clint eastwood answer (the good, the bad and the ugly).

I will start it with this many people have gone out and rented horses with 0 issues, or minor issues. Some have had horrific experiences. The biggest things I see (I am an outfitter, I have been packing stock for 20 years) are more dangers to the animals than to the people that are renting them. It’s something that the term “leave it to the professionals” is sometimes better than having an accident. Now I’m not trying to rent horses I don’t rent my stock out, never will. I’m in the business cause I love it, I love packing animals and I love helping people. I know I’ll never get rich outfitting but I enjoy it.

Now here’s some of the good
1. Harvested game can get packed out
2. Your gear isn’t on your back
3. You have a ride in and out
4. More weight more amenities in your camp
5. You can get your stuff in or out in 1 trip
6. Can cover more country cause ur not hiking everywhere

Here’s the bad
1. Horses need feed if you can’t find a good spot to graze them several hours a day or night you gotta bring some in, if the horse hasn’t been on green grass and you are grazing them on it they can founder, or colic. Colic can be fatal if you don’t know how to treat it. I’ve had horses colic on the mountain and lay down in the trail, it’s what they do, 4 hours later of going to get medicine and back horse was in the same spot, took me 30’minutes after an IV shot of banamine to get the horse on its feet and going down the mountain. Most rental companies have an agreement horse dies in your care you owe $3500, that price with the horse market is probably more up to $5000
2. Horses need water, a horse needs water to help digest its food so it’s not a water in the morning and water in the evening.
3. Ever tried to sleep at night with horses tied up to a tree or high line? Every noise wakes you up, you have to check on them make sure they aren’t hanging themselves, have a foot over a lead rope, laid down and can’t get up. How bout getting untied and running back to the trail head? Walking through an electric fence.
4. When ur gone all day hunting you still have a horse or 2 back at camp, few years ago I road into a camp and a guys mule was laying there dead tied to a tree cause it got its leg over the lead rope and fell down. He came back that evening with a note on his tent that said “got to your camp at 9:30AM, ur mule was dead, had its foot over the lead rope, you can see the struggle it had, nothing I could do sorry for ur loss, this has been reported to the USFS” we came back in the next day and the guy was packed out and gone with his mule laying there still 30’ off the trail. It’s actually illegal to not report it.
5. Horses are not go anywhere, they can die to and dangerous areas puts you and them at risk. Most injuries and accidents I’ve seen are people taking their stock into places they shouldn’t have gone
6. If you don’t know how to pack panniers properly, you’re gonna have an accident. Several times I’ve come down the trail to a yard sale and a hunter is wore out cause the saddle slid and the horse spooked and he can’t find it. We’ve found horses stuck in a deadfall from getting spooked and finally getting hung up, shaking, dripping sweat, cut up.
7. Even a minor accident on a horse can be the worst, doing this for this long we have had accidents. Somethings can be avoided, others can’t
8. Basic horsemanship will be a huge help but the more experience the better. Cinch sores, saddle sores, cuts, scrapes, lameness happen. Knowing how to deal with them will help but how do you know when it’s to bad to continue?

The ugly
1. Even very experienced horseman have died, we had one several years ago, they still don’t know what happened but the guys mule came runnin back to camo without him. When his party found him all they could tell was the mule slipped and fell and he hit his head on a rock.
2. How do you know when ur horse is to injured? I had a gentleman come down from a trail one time I had been back for about an hour unloading gear. He came in walking this horse that could barely put weight in one leg, I asked him if I could check it out for him, he said the rental company would be there in 3-4 hours. After checking the horse out we found it had fractured its back leg, the guy had been walking the horse from 8 miles in for 14 hours, I asked if he knew what happened, he said he was trying to get to his elk he shot, and was goin across a rock field when the horse went down. Said he knew that it was dangerous but said he rented the horse to pack the game so he didn’t have to. The rental company got there and took the horse to the vet, they brought him another horse to go get his elk and gear. When he came down he had 150lbs of gear and a whole cow on this poor horses back.
3. Know the weight limits of your stock. They say 20% of a horses weight is what they can carry but there is love weight and dead weight. I keep my stock to about 10% or 150-175lbs of dead weight. We work several months in a row so I try not to go over 150. This also has a distance factor, terrain etc. I’ve seen my biggest mules struggle one 5 miles of hard terrain. Uphill is hard on them but down hill is worse. Knowing how to pack ur gear so it doesn’t slide forwards or backwards. Much like you’d pack your backpack, ur not gonna wanna put the heavy stuff at the top and light stuff at the bottom. Saddle panniers are the worse, you can’t weigh each side to make sure ur even. Lash ropes and manty tarps can keep everything secured in a situation. I’ve always packed my gear based on terrain uphill more weight forward downhill more weight back.

Just trying to give you as much info as possible on all this sometimes the bad outweighs the good. My biggest concern with horse renters is you need to be ur first priority, ur stock next and ur hunt last. I personally usually put my stock ahead of myself, they rely on me to keep them safe.


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You handed out some very good advice. Anyone who reads it should really take it to heart. I am by no means as experienced as you. Sure wish I was and was few years younger to pack into back country by mule. I have put a lot of miles on mules in some pretty ruff terrain and did make a trip with plans on packing 12 miles into back country from the trail head solo with a horse and 2 mules. Had planned on staying until I either killed a bull or until the 4 weeks I had set a side for the trip was up.

Lucky for me I was just enough experienced to learn after 3 days looking for a safe route to pack in. I couldn’t find a way I felt comfortable with. And learned just how much work it was going to be handling 3 animals and try to hunt on top of that.

First problem I had was the trail leading in was steeper than I had the nerve to pony two pack mules behind the horse I was riding in on. So I spent 2 more days trying to find a different route.

Second problem while still looking for a route in was I rode into a bog that looked totally like solid regular dry ground that I learned real quick was more like quick sand. The mule had already made it in 15 foot before I could turn it around. Got afraid the mule was going to roll over in the bog and burry me. Leaped off before that could happen. The mule keep lunging forward to the other side 30 yards across. I was on the opposite side. As I watched the mule walk away with a $ 2500 saddle, and a $ 700 cam corder, $ 300 set of binoculars, $ 200 range finder all inside of the $ 300 saddle pack. Sure I am forgetting something. And the worst part not 30 minutes before that happened. I was above timber line videotaping the canyon below. And was talking, recording what I was videotaping as I filmed. I paned back down the mountain to film my camp 7 miles back. Had just made the comment that went something like this. “ As you can see how far it is back to camp, you can see you wouldn’t want to get left a foot ! “ . And believe me there’s a lot of truth to that statement. Only good thing about it if there was anything about having to walk 7 miles back to camp was that it was all down hill !

So after going to camp and returning back with my horse and mule. I was at about 11,000 foot. Only thing growing was one scrub Charlie Brown looking pine tree. So I tied that mule up by its lead rope to the tree. And rode off out of sight. Wasn’t just a few minutes the mule started braying. About 30 minutes after that I saw my other mule, orange saddle pack and rest of my gear appear out of the woods on up to my other little mule that was braying.

Rode up to them both. Lead them back to camp. Would have never guessed that was quick sand. Was covered a little with Aspen leave’s. Up until that point I was still planning on packing on in and had thought I found the route to do it.

Between that and my other problems I hadn’t planned on happening. And I had whole lot of MREs I had planned on living off. Well let’s just say this old fat boy likes to eat way too much to be expected to live 3 more weeks off of MREs. So I spent the rest of my hunt closer in.

 

[Pony Soldier]

To me the biggest issue with horses is knowing what to expect out of each horse and them knowing what to expect out of you. Knowing the country is also a critical issue. Bogs/wetlands can be fatal nightmares - especialy at night.

I often ride in and then tie my stock up for hours. That may not be an accepted program with all horses. Having trails cut for them or the ability to cut them can also be an issue.

Stock is not like renting a side by side. I would be reluctant.

 

[yfarm]

Check my post in the saddlebag thread. Went to the clinic with different plans than I came out with. Reality check. Had a great time, plan to do it again with a professional. Taking care of the stock well and packing and unpacking basically consumes most of your day. Terrain, weather, equine problems and your hunt is over. Watched 2 bow hunters hike in 8 miles to backpack hunt in 70 degree weather, instructors response was no way in hell if they kill an elk they will get the meat out before it spoils. We packed in 8 pack animals plus rode 9 horses, all the animals but one were turned loose to graze all night. We packed in 12 50 lb bags of feed, 2/3 of each load was feed. Had a NPS packer with us that does day trips in his NP, said equine care with long wilderness trips was far greater than going home each day to feed and water.

 

[Less]

Check my post in the saddlebag thread. Went to the clinic with different plans than I came out with. Reality check. Had a great time, plan to do it again with a professional. Taking care of the stock well and packing and unpacking basically consumes most of your day. Terrain, weather, equine problems and your hunt is over. Watched 2 bow hunters hike in 8 miles to backpack hunt in 70 degree weather, instructors response was no way in hell if they kill an elk they will get the meat out before it spoils.

That instructor sounds like he knew what he was talking about. I think it would be a blast to learn how to pack in and out by horse or mules in itself. And I don’t mean just tagging along once or twice with someone that knows what they are doing. I think it would take a lot of trips packing to just begin to scratch the surface of being able to consider yourself a true expert at it. There is a lot to learn to be good, safe and know what your doing.

Just being able to ride a mule or horse in ruff steep terrain is dangerous. I went the long way around in my attempt to learn how to pack in on my own stock. I actually selected a mare and jack that I raised a John and Molly mule out of. Started working with them from the time they were born trying to imprint them. Once they were around 3 year olds I hired some old school cowboys to help me break them to ride. Didn’t know it at the time but now can look back and see hundreds of things we done wrong or things I would do different if I was to ever break mules for riding and packing again. And personally I wouldn’t want horses for packing or hunting.

But all & all my mules turned out pretty descent. While breaking them we road in ruff steep rocky terrain. A lot of times we would make 15 to 20 mile round trips in and back out in a days time. That’s one thing I would never do again on a regular base’s. Too hard on the mules, but when you make it back to the trailer and drop the rains. They stand there like a mild mannered reporter. No where near as frisky as they were when you unloaded the to head up the mountain. That was too much on them but it put a good handle on them.

I had saw buck pack saddles instead of the other style that I can’t remember what they are called off hand. I should have been ponying the mule with packing a load while I was riding the other on those trips. But it’s easy to look back and see your mistakes after you have made them.

I was doing all of that so that I could use them for Elk hunting. I would have had as good of a time if not better just going along with friends and not even of hunted but instead working with my mules packing for the rest of the group. I really enjoyed working with my mules.

 

[Less]

Check my post in the saddlebag thread. Went to the clinic with different plans than I came out with. Reality check. Had a great time, plan to do it again with a professional. Taking care of the stock well and packing and unpacking basically consumes most of your day. Terrain, weather, equine problems and your hunt is over. Watched 2 bow hunters hike in 8 miles to backpack hunt in 70 degree weather, instructors response was no way in hell if they kill an elk they will get the meat out before it spoils. We packed in 8 pack animals plus rode 9 horses, all the animals but one were turned loose to graze all night. We packed in 12 50 lb bags of feed, 2/3 of each load was feed. Had a NPS packer with us that does day trips in his NP, said equine care with long wilderness trips was far greater than going home each day to feed and water.

When you turned them loose of a night. Was one a bell horse ? I mean how were you able to catch them ?

 

[yfarm]

One horse remained on a highline, the others loose. Once we started hanging the feedbags on the others were right back there. Think we had one wander off. Wrangler rode up the canyon and was back in 10 minutes. Several of the mules would follow packed without a lead. Was not familiar with barn and buddy sour, sure am now. Ponying a mule or mules down switchbacks I was told is the hardest part and I am a true believer now. I had one mule and had to keep its head near my knee otherwise it kept wrapping the lead around my horses tail which caused the horse to spook, try that on a steep downhill switchback. My instructor runs training clinics for the army which used mules and donkeys for missions in the mountains around the world. 5 day class, just scratched the surface. Have utmost admiration for you guys that do this as a job or lifestyle.
Instructor used amixture of sawbucks and Deckers, said if starting over would use Deckers. NPS used all Deckers. Watching the performance of the animals in the terrain I asked why anyone would use horses when mules are available, response was people like the looks of horses.

 

[Pony Soldier]

The availability of mules in far western Mt was limited. The forest service had them and some of the bigger outfitters. There are a few of us that took to Morgans, Saddlebreds and Walkers. I like to cover a lot of country at a reasonable speed with a smooth gait.

 

[Less]

One horse remained on a highline, the others loose. Once we started hanging the feedbags on the others were right back there. Think we had one wander off. Wrangler rode up the canyon and was back in 10 minutes. Several of the mules would follow packed without a lead. Was not familiar with barn and buddy sour, sure am now. Ponying a mule or mules down switchbacks I was told is the hardest part and I am a true believer now. I had one mule and had to keep its head near my knee otherwise it kept wrapping the lead around my horses tail which caused the horse to spook, try that on a steep downhill switchback. My instructor runs training clinics for the army which used mules and donkeys for missions in the mountains around the world. 5 day class, just scratched the surface. Have utmost admiration for you guys that do this as a job or lifestyle.
Instructor used amixture of sawbucks and Deckers, said if starting over would use Deckers. NPS used all Deckers. Watching the performance of the animals in the terrain I asked why anyone would use horses when mules are available, response was people like the looks of horses.

Decker pack saddles, that’s what they are called. They are more expensive than saw bucks but I think would be worth the extra expense.

One of the guys that I rode a lot with was assigned to a unit in the military that used mules for military operations. He was really knowledgeable and knew how to train mules. He taught me how to ride and just how ruff of terrain a mule is capable of handling. When I first started riding with him there were a lot of times I was scared to follow him. And he was up in his 60’s and half crippled in a way. But once he was in the saddle nothing could stop him. Can’t remember exactly what branch of the military he was in. Want to say the marines but seems like it was something else.

There was a mule trainer named Steve Edwards that my friend was real impressed with. We hired Mr. Edwards to put on a mule training clinic for us. He is probably dead now. My friend is dead. Pretty sad to see him in as bad of shape he had gotten in before he died a couple of years ago.

Was hoping he would make a hunting trip to Colorado with me when we were riding so much back then. I would have loved to have seen what he could have taught about packing on mules.

The week we put the mule clinic on we had 30 or 40 mules that went on our pre clinic ride through the mountains. That was a pretty special event.

We were riding so much during that time it was hard to believe 2 years had passed so fast when we were riding. We really had those mules in good condition and very well trained. Never even crossed my mind my friend would soon die and I would end up in as bad of shape as I am in now.

I remember taken the mares and having them bred to a mammoth Jack named Clyde . The owner of old Clyde had used Clyde to cover if I remember right 30 head of quarter horse mares, plus my mares that year. The old man had built a breeding shoot that he would back the mare into so that old Clyde couldn’t get kicked while servicing the mare. He would take a Shetland pony stud to check the mare with as a teaser and to make sure the mare was in season. Before breeding them to the mammoth jack.

That old man had some good looking mule colts and had no problem selling them. I don’t know how many people contacted me trying to buy my two mule colts. Time really fly’s by when your involved in a project like breaking and training a good pair of saddle mules.

 

[yfarm]

Steve Edwards is still training mules in Arizona

 

[Less]

Steve is probably in his 70’s now ?

 

[Pony Soldier]

Seventies just means that you have seen more than those in their 60s.

 

[BradySC05]

Anyone know where to possibly look into picking up a few used mules or horses in Montana? Don’t want to bust the bank, but am willing to spend a little extra to find good pack stock.

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

Anyone know where to possibly look into picking up a few used mules or horses in Montana? Don’t want to bust the bank, but am willing to spend a little extra to find good pack stock.

Now a days, break the bank, and good horses go in the same sentence. You can’t hardly find a good horse/mule for cheap anymore, and if you do they got some kind of bad Vice,


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