Stikine packrafts any good?

[Belleau]

Hey everyone,

I'm looking for a 2 person packraft canoe style to navigate mostly on flat water. I'm in canada and alpacka rafts ends up a bit pricy.. I was looking at Stikine packrafts, but they don't have much reviews. I was wondering if someone here is familiar with them?

Thank you very much!

 

[pcrossett]

I can't speak to Stikine packrafts specifically but I like Kokopelli for their packrafts. They have two options for 2 person styles in their Lake series.

 

[Larry Bartlett]

from an engineering design perspective they are using high quality TPU fabric, sourced from a company I've purchased material from out of Europe for a military project I'm working on. It looks like they are however using a single-sided coated fabric but in 420D for the hull and 840D for the floor material. They claim to use RF welding on seams vs glue. Delivery might take a bit coming from Germany. I question the accuracy of the actual weights, but maybe since they are using single sided TPU coating they can get away with a "lighter" weight 420D fabric. IME most packraft companies are using 210D double sided TPU for hulls and up to 420-840D floor material claiming the same pack weight of virtually the same design specs. Admittingly I have no experience with Stikine quality though.

 

[Belleau]

I can't speak to Stikine packrafts specifically but I like Kokopelli for their packrafts. They have two options for 2 person styles in their Lake series.

Yes, I have looked at Kokopelli and other brands such as MRS. However, there seems to be a significant difference in weight capacity compared to Alpacka. Can someone explain this to me? I'm really confused. How can there be such a big gap when the rafts have similar shapes and materials? I don't understand, but perhaps the design of the raft plays a big role.

from an engineering design perspective they are using high quality TPU fabric, sourced from a company I've purchased material from out of Europe for a military project I'm working on. It looks like they are however using a single-sided coated fabric but in 420D for the hull and 840D for the floor material. They claim to use RF welding on seams vs glue. Delivery might take a bit coming from Germany. I question the accuracy of the actual weights, but maybe since they are using single sided TPU coating they can get away with a "lighter" weight 420D fabric. IME most packraft companies are using 210D double sided TPU for hulls and up to 420-840D floor material claiming the same pack weight of virtually the same design specs. Admittingly I have no experience with Stikine quality though.

As someone who doesn't have any experience with Stikine, you provided a lot of pertinent info. That's really helpful, thank you very much! Do you have any doubts about using a single-sided coated fabric in 420D compared to a double-sided 210D? Do you see any advantages or disadvantages?

 

[thinhorn_AK]

Buy once, cry once...

 

[Belleau]

Buy once, cry once...

I know but...

 

[Larry Bartlett]

Yes as a raft designer myself, there is a line where ultralight function and safety margins meet. If I need a packraft to haul >100-lbs of meat plus myself and kit, I would have at least 2 air chambers (not one like most packrafts) and made with a minimum of 420D dual-coated fabric. The trade off to this minimal viable product is the argument of pack weight. All the brands you've mentioned aren't hunting-specific designs, so there are safety margins they aren't even aware of in our world and their designs reflect their target user group. So, some guys are making it work with the larger packrafts like Alpacka started years ago, but they aren't ideal for hunting application in sketchy mountain tributaries. In many remote places you need flotation, which requires air pressure which requires heavier fabric and added weight for 2 air chambers and air valves.

What Stikine has done is created a heavier denier packraft and perhaps to stay competitive in weight savings chose the single side coated fabric. This is all just a speculation from a designers perspective.

In answer to your question about advertised weight capacities, that's a great one. There is no official guidance for manufacturers to set weight capacities; however I set my designs' "weight capacity" to provide buoyancy of 50% hull depth above and below the waterline. With packrafts that 50% draft don't mean shit if you're heavily loaded in a small craft with wave heights larger than your tubes, as that waterline fluctuating up and down alongside a 13" tube diam doesn't take much to take on water or provide sufficient pucker factor. The margin of error for hunting packrafts, IMO, is worth the extra pack weight of a more robust design specific to your expected weight capacity demand.

 

[Belleau]

Yes as a raft designer myself, there is a line where ultralight function and safety margins meet. If I need a packraft to haul >100-lbs of meat plus myself and kit, I would have at least 2 air chambers (not one like most packrafts) and made with a minimum of 420D dual-coated fabric. The trade off to this minimal viable product is the argument of pack weight. All the brands you've mentioned aren't hunting-specific designs, so there are safety margins they aren't even aware of in our world and their designs reflect their target user group. So, some guys are making it work with the larger packrafts like Alpacka started years ago, but they aren't ideal for hunting application in sketchy mountain tributaries. In many remote places you need flotation, which requires air pressure which requires heavier fabric and added weight for 2 air chambers and air valves.

What Stikine has done is created a heavier denier packraft and perhaps to stay competitive in weight savings chose the single side coated fabric. This is all just a speculation from a designers perspective.

In answer to your question about advertised weight capacities, that's a great one. There is no official guidance for manufacturers to set weight capacities; however I set my designs' "weight capacity" to provide buoyancy of 50% hull depth above and below the waterline. With packrafts that 50% draft don't mean shit if you're heavily loaded in a small craft with wave heights larger than your tubes, as that waterline fluctuating up and down alongside a 13" tube diam doesn't take much to take on water or provide sufficient pucker factor. The margin of error for hunting packrafts, IMO, is worth the extra pack weight of a more robust design specific to your expected weight capacity demand.

Thank you so much Larry, that's very interesting for someone who has zero experience in the world of rafting.

Is there any brands you know that are more oriented towards hunting and offers robust packraft with double air chamber? I did a quick search but I didn't find anything packable. I thought Alpacka was THE brand of packrafts for hardcore hunters in the backcountry, but seems like I was wrong..?

I read somewhere that using inflated dry bags could be a good alternative to a double air chamber.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

Thank you so much Larry, that's very interesting for someone who has zero experience in the world of rafting.

Is there any brands you know that are more oriented towards hunting and offers robust packraft with double air chamber? I did a quick search but I didn't find anything packable. I thought Alpacka was THE brand of packrafts for hardcore hunters in the backcountry, but seems like I was wrong..?

I read somewhere that using inflated dry bags could be a good alternative to a double air chamber.

Pristine ventures is Larry bartletts company. Those things a purpose built for hauling meat.

 

[Belleau]

Pristine ventures is Larry bartletts company. Those things a purpose built for hauling meat.

Oh right thanks, that makes sense!

 

[207-12A]

If you're comparing packrafts and looking at carrying capacity, check the tube diameter. Cylinder volume squares off of the radius, so small increases in tube diameter can lead to big increases in volume, and therefore displacement (which equals higher carrying capacity).

That's why Kokopelli's two man Twain (12" tube diameter) won't carry nearly as much as Alpacka's Forager (13.1") despite them having very similar intended niches.

I'll say from lots of softshell Alaska river experience, rafts that are meant to be "haulers" perform much better when loaded down. My Forager makes you find excuses to throw an extra 100 pounds of gear in the tubes on the front end of a trip. Once you get it loaded down, the handling gets better (less tippy, better paddle responsiveness). Not so for my Alpacka classic, which handles awesome light and gets sluggish when you approach it's max weight capacity.

 

[TagEater]

A lot of of these are imported from China. I purchased from the factory direct with good results

AUDAC SPORTS - Multi Inflatable Products manufacture

CUSTOMIZED INFLATABLES

www.audacsports.com

 

[Belleau]

I end up on your website and youtube @Larry Bartlett. You have a lot of interesting content and your rafts seems very well built. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

 

[Clarktar]

A lot of of these are imported from China. I purchased from the factory direct with good results

AUDAC SPORTS - Multi Inflatable Products manufacture

CUSTOMIZED INFLATABLES

www.audacsports.com

What were the prices for products you bought? They don't list any prices.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

[tater]

I cant speak to Stikine, but i can talk packrafts.
My hunting partner and i did a 220Km fly in/float out hunt for Stones last August. He used his Alpacka Mule and i used one of Larry's PR49 rafts.

He and i differ a bit in goals and frameworks in approaches to gear. He really appreciates ultralight, whereas i am willing to sacrifice weight for durability.
He has a young family and plans on using it to pack into high alpine lakes with them in the future whereas my boat will be used for moose hunting and some drive in lake fly fishing.

He killed me on the portages in ease of transport (weight/ease of packing), but i was able to run whitewater as easily as he was with a stable boat (inflatable floor in PR49) and with a wider margin of safety (single versus double chambers as mentioned). He was way more sensitive to beaching and handling whereas is just did what i had to do and trusted that the heavier fabric would do its job.

Alpacka makes a great product, and if my goals were more in alignment with my partners, i may have gone that route. For my needs i have ZERO regrets about my PR49, and Larry was phenomenal to deal with.
And as noted above, buy once-cry once. You may have to wait or forego some things, but you will never regret good gear.

 

[TagEater]

What were the prices for products you bought? They don't list any prices.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

All in I was around $750 Shipped from China. Again there are a lot of companies that import them, re badge, then sell as their own products. Even Kokopelli imports like this.

 

[Belleau]

Quick question @Larry Bartlett
Why don't you offer a tizip option on your rafts? Is it because of the 2 air chamber? I might be wrong but I saw that some of the rafts from china with 2 air chambers have it... it would let more space for 2 people with gear on a smaller boat. I would love to hear your thoughts on this. Thanks!

 

[TagEater]

Zipper are certainly a potential failure point. I can see why folks wouldn't want them

 

[Larry Bartlett]

packrafts that are mouth-blown to taughtness have way less air pressure than a raft with air baffles and chambers (inflated with a cylinder pump). Don't suspect the zippers would fare well under extreme pressure. If it leaked and one side sagged or deflated with meat on board, that's a potential I want to avoid. The zipper compartments are a novel idea for space savings but load a zippered packraft with 500-lbs of cargo and bounce it off a few hazards...again a use-specific concept that works with small watercraft and light loads. The last reason is because I didn't innovate that idea and some things Alpacka pioneered should be left for their brand to thrive on for a bit without rip-offs trying to compete.

 

[Belleau]

Kyle (owner of Stikine) gave me some answers I could share with you all later.

But one thing he pointed out is that he is using single coated fabric:
"This is the industry standard for good reason. (alpacka also does this) Single coated material provides significantly higher tear strength compared to the same material with a double coat. "

I'm a bit confused here, I thought double sided coat was better from Larry's statement. But I just saw the same thing on Alpacka's website.