Stainless vs brass insert

[Billy Goat]

Just curious, why do you guys prefer the HITs vs. half outs?

Halfouts bend, the extra leverage from the point being out further I assume is to blame. I bent several SS while trying them.

Also, like another poster is asking about now, they can get hung up in bag targets.

 

[LCsmith]

Halfouts bend, the extra leverage from the point being out further I assume is to blame. I bent several SS while trying them.

Also, like another poster is asking about now, they can get hung up in bag targets.

I have bent a couple SS half outs but that was from a miss that went into a tree or leg rod of a 3D target. Fortunately when they bend they can be replaced and don't destroy the end of the arrow like a HIT does.

I don't shoot bag targets but I do like how they pull out of 3D targets with the half out. Anyways, I guess it just comes down to personal preference and that's why they make both!

 

[5MilesBack]

I have bent a couple SS half outs but that was from a miss that went into a tree or leg rod of a 3D target. Fortunately when they bend they can be replaced and don't destroy the end of the arrow like a HIT does.

Question for you. Let's say you have your half out epoxied into the arrow with the back end of the "out" part up against the shaft.......how is that different than having a FP screwed into a HIT with the back end of the FP up against the arrow. How does one ruin the end of the arrow but the other doesn't? The only way to ruin the end of the arrow is if the HIT breaks free and then the FP pushes down inside the end of the arrow. But if the half out breaks free as well, then it also should "push down inside the end of the arrow". The key here is making sure the insert (HIT or half out) stays put and doesn't break free at all.

I've mushroomed a LOT of FP's over the years without any damage to my arrows. But I've also bent some SS half outs that needed replacing.......but getting them out without ruining the shaft has always been the problem there. Bent or mushroomed FP's are easy to replace.

 

[LCsmith]

Question for you. Let's say you have your half out epoxied into the arrow with the back end of the "out" part up against the shaft.......how is that different than having a FP screwed into a HIT with the back end of the FP up against the arrow. How does one ruin the end of the arrow but the other doesn't? The only way to ruin the end of the arrow is if the HIT breaks free and then the FP pushes down inside the end of the arrow. But if the half out breaks free as well, then it also should "push down inside the end of the arrow". The key here is making sure the insert (HIT or half out) stays put and doesn't break free at all.

I've mushroomed a LOT of FP's over the years without any damage to my arrows. But I've also bent some SS half outs that needed replacing.......but getting them out without ruining the shaft has always been the problem there. Bent or mushroomed FP's are easy to replace.

The difference is that on a half out, the load during impact is distributed through the face of the arrow and the shank of the insert where it is glued to the arrow. With the HIT, the broadhead or field point is bottomed out on the face of the arrow and causes the load to be transferred only through the face thus causing mushrooming or splintering on the end of the arrow. Another factor that comes into play is that the end of the arrow is never "perfectly" square to the arrow shaft so when the tip is tightened down, it creates a localized stress in the area that contacts first.

There are quite a few discussions around this and I really noticed it when I was shooting FMJs. The BAR do help with this. As mentioned before, I know people that really like the HITs and I am not knocking them, just sharing my experience and as an engineer, I enjoy discussing the details.

I use bohning cool flex on the half outs so they can be knocked out pretty easily using a drill bit.

FMJ-HIT mushroom!

www.archerytalk.com

HIT insert depth mystery

www.tradtalk.com

 

[Billy Goat]

The difference is that on a half out, the load during impact is distributed through the face of the arrow and the shank of the insert where it is glued to the arrow. With the HIT, the broadhead or field point is bottomed out on the face of the arrow and causes the load to be transferred only through the face thus causing mushrooming or splintering on the end of the arrow. Another factor that comes into play is that the end of the arrow is never "perfectly" square to the arrow shaft so when the tip is tightened down, it creates a localized stress in the area that contacts first.

There are quite a few discussions around this and I really noticed it when I was shooting FMJs. The BAR do help with this. As mentioned before, I know people that really like the HITs and I am not knocking them, just sharing my experience and as an engineer, I enjoy discussing the details.

I use bohning cool flex on the half outs so they can be knocked out pretty easily using a drill bit.

FMJ-HIT mushroom!

www.archerytalk.com

HIT insert depth mystery

www.tradtalk.com

When you square the front of a shaft, it does allow the tip to seat evenly across it. Take a shaft that isn't squared, it will actually walk the tip, producing a wobble, because the threads are pulling the surfaces together, trying to get them to mate. Not squaring the front of an arrow with a hit insert will quickly produce problems because of the point loading.


I can't remember the compression strength of carbon versus steel, I was thinking carbon was stronger, but that's by weight or density I believe.


The link you provided on the FMJ's just shows the weaknesses of using two materials, neither being enough. An fmj bends from the aluminum, it also doesn't have the durability of an all carbon arrow. Hits are also supposed to be seated further than bottoming out the threads, because they want the point to bear on the end of the shaft, not the insert. There's too much tolerance in threads, they aren't to be used to hold impact forces in the inserts, they are just to hold the mating surfaces tight.

 

[LCsmith]

When you square the front of a shaft, it does allow the tip to seat evenly across it. Take a shaft that isn't squared, it will actually walk the tip, producing a wobble, because the threads are pulling the surfaces together, trying to get them to mate. Not squaring the front of an arrow with a hit insert will quickly produce problems because of the point loading.


I can't remember the compression strength of carbon versus steel, I was thinking carbon was stronger, but that's by weight or density I believe.


The link you provided on the FMJ's just shows the weaknesses of using two materials, neither being enough. An fmj bends from the aluminum, it also doesn't have the durability of an all carbon arrow. Hits are also supposed to be seated further than bottoming out the threads, because they want the point to bear on the end of the shaft, not the insert. There's too much tolerance in threads, they aren't to be used to hold impact forces in the inserts, they are just to hold the mating surfaces tight.

You will never get an arrow end perfectly square using a squaring tool or not, that's just how tolerances work. Yes, the squaring tool does help mitigate problems but as you noted, the design of the HIT requires the point to tighten against the face of the arrow (square or not) so now when the arrow contacts the target the point is being driven into the face of the arrow rather than through the glued shank and face like a standard insert system.

Carbon fiber is not stronger than steel in compression with the same cross sectional area.

I completely agree that the FMJ blend is not ideal for a lot of reasons which is why I don't shoot them anymore.

Seems like this topic was discussed already on here and quickly digressed so I'll leave it at that close by saying that they make HITs and outserts so choose what you like and kill some stuff with em! https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/insert-issue-with-easton-axis-arrows.207567/

 

[Billy Goat]

You will never get an arrow end perfectly square using a squaring tool or not, that's just how tolerances work. Yes, the squaring tool does help mitigate problems but as you noted, the design of the HIT requires the point to tighten against the face of the arrow (square or not) so now when the arrow contacts the target the point is being driven into the face of the arrow rather than through the glued shank and face like a standard insert system.

Carbon fiber is not stronger than steel in compression with the same cross sectional area.

I completely agree that the FMJ blend is not ideal for a lot of reasons which is why I don't shoot them anymore.

Seems like this topic was discussed already on here and quickly digressed so I'll leave it at that close by saying that they make HITs and outserts so choose what you like and kill some stuff with em! https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/insert-issue-with-easton-axis-arrows.207567/

I get it.

I think the idea of being square is it's square enough, it will provide full bearing surface.

I don't use hits, I prefer .244-.246 I like that I can adhere an insert that loads both the front section of a shaft, and has area to adhere to in the shaft, much like a halfout would. I just found halfouts to be way more problems than they were worth when I played with them.

Also, the Bohning cool melt you should be able to just hold a lighter to the end of the halfout, melt the adhesive and pull it out. You won't transfer enough heat to the carbon if you do it properly. Actually, cool melt you can just use hot water. I use regular hot melt, good bit more heat to melt, but holds a lot better too.

 

[5MilesBack]

I figure that the end of the shaft at 90 degrees to the walls should be "good enough". Or perhaps I should say "always has been good enough". The only arrows I've had trouble with getting the inserts to stay put with epoxy were GT Kinetics, and those did mushroom a couple. But more commonly the arrows just flat out broke behind the inserts. For the past 15 years, all my other .204's have held up great on the ends, but I shoot heavier/thicker stiff spine arrows.

As for cool melt......I've tried the cool, the hot, easton, bohning, etc, etc......and have never had an insert of any type stay in the arrow for very long, even shooting only foam. I do have a few arrows with 100gr Ethics SS halfouts, but I much prefer the HIT's. And for whatever reason.....those arrows with the HIT's are consistently closer together than those with the halfouts. They both appear to spin the same, but at 40+ there is a difference, and the arrows weight the exact same amounts as with HIT's.

Edit: I did have some Sirius Apollo 250's that the 50gr brass HIT's all quickly came out of using epoxy and just shooting foam. But after changing to a new epoxy, they've now been solidly in place for the last two years.....even after burying them into trees (intentionally).