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Spotting your shots
- Thread starter mt terry d
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To add to this, it has a lot to do with both the bottom of the stock but also the top of the stock and butt.
-Bottom of stock parallel to bore helps it slide on a bag in a straight line.
-Top (comb) of stock affects how it impacts your face: a negative comb (slopes down toward action) will relieve pressure on your face under recoil making it less prone to losing sight picture
-Butt too low creates a pivot point and increases muzzle rise—this is why old-school monte carlo stocks are worse for recoil management than a modern stock with a high comb but with the butt as high as possible relative to bore.
Edit: the bag obviously only applies if you are using a bag (prone or from a field position using a rear rest or a bench). The other two are in play from any position, in any place field or range.
(Plus shooter technique)
Last edited:
Lawnboi
WKR
Don’t blink.
Easier said than done.
Easier said than done.
ID_Matt
WKR
Modern Day Sniper and Phil Velayo are solid resources. Natural point of aim is huge in my opinion. Getting straight in line behind the rifle with a good connection like phil talks about in the tagged video earlier and having a solid natural point of aim are what I focus on. Gun wants to follow the path of least resistance. I think some guys try to stop the recoil by over loading the gun or putting too much pressure. Better off to accept that the gun is going to recoil no matter what and if you have a good natural aim, it is going to settle back down where it started.
In a recent range session, trigger and recoil differences and their mpacts to my ability to see impacts and shoot accurately became apparent. I was shooting handloads out of my Tikka .25-06 and factory ammo out of my Ruger American .308. Key points...
After 20 rounds out of the Tikka with OEM stock, Limbsaver pad, and vertical grip, I was 100% comfortable and enjoying the session. It was a pleasure to shoot, and If i had more ammo, I would've gladly continued shooting. Two 10 round groups and the aggregate were acceptable to me for my first batch of handloads at 1.5-2 MOA at 100. These were max loads with 52 grains of IMR4831 and 115 NBT.
After 20 rounds of out the Ruger with 168 TMK, I began to notice the recoil and my groups were opening up. This rifle sits in a Boyds laminate stock with Limbsaver pad and with scope weighs around 9-9.5 pounds. After 20 rounds it just wasn't very fun to shoot compared to the Tikka, and what I noticed the most was how much I hated the Ruger accutrigger. I persevered anyways and shot another 20 rounds of 175 ELDX, and should've just saved the ammo.
The Tikka trigger is consistent, short, and breaks crisp. The Ruger Accutriger and the blade within the trigger has intentional creep by design and although I haven't measured the two triggers, it must be significantly heavier than the Tikka. Betweeen the heavier trigger and anticipation of the recoil, I was immediately aware of a flinch I was developing with the .308. As I pulled the trigger, I was anticipating it going off instead of focusing on the reticle and squeezing off shots. This was impacting my confidence behind the gun and my groups suffered as a result.
I've never done a side by side like this before, and it really opened my eyes. In the past I would just take my .308 to the range, get shots downrange and go from there. The key takeaways are how important a good trigger is for accurate shooting and how recoil absolutely impacts my ability to see impacts down range. Fortunately, I have a can for the .308 that only has a few weeks left in jail. In the meantime, I'm going to replace the trigger in the Ruger with a Timney and see if I like it as much as the Tikka.
After 20 rounds out of the Tikka with OEM stock, Limbsaver pad, and vertical grip, I was 100% comfortable and enjoying the session. It was a pleasure to shoot, and If i had more ammo, I would've gladly continued shooting. Two 10 round groups and the aggregate were acceptable to me for my first batch of handloads at 1.5-2 MOA at 100. These were max loads with 52 grains of IMR4831 and 115 NBT.
After 20 rounds of out the Ruger with 168 TMK, I began to notice the recoil and my groups were opening up. This rifle sits in a Boyds laminate stock with Limbsaver pad and with scope weighs around 9-9.5 pounds. After 20 rounds it just wasn't very fun to shoot compared to the Tikka, and what I noticed the most was how much I hated the Ruger accutrigger. I persevered anyways and shot another 20 rounds of 175 ELDX, and should've just saved the ammo.
The Tikka trigger is consistent, short, and breaks crisp. The Ruger Accutriger and the blade within the trigger has intentional creep by design and although I haven't measured the two triggers, it must be significantly heavier than the Tikka. Betweeen the heavier trigger and anticipation of the recoil, I was immediately aware of a flinch I was developing with the .308. As I pulled the trigger, I was anticipating it going off instead of focusing on the reticle and squeezing off shots. This was impacting my confidence behind the gun and my groups suffered as a result.
I've never done a side by side like this before, and it really opened my eyes. In the past I would just take my .308 to the range, get shots downrange and go from there. The key takeaways are how important a good trigger is for accurate shooting and how recoil absolutely impacts my ability to see impacts down range. Fortunately, I have a can for the .308 that only has a few weeks left in jail. In the meantime, I'm going to replace the trigger in the Ruger with a Timney and see if I like it as much as the Tikka.
I think the most underrated thing in spotting impacts is stock designs. you need a negative comb so the stock is directly in line with the barrel. if your stock is below the centerline of the rifle it will create a moment arm and jump. very few factory rifle have a negative comb. gunwerks probably has the best design and is why most companies are copying there design, for off the shelf, the sauer 100 has the best design of any production rifle i have seen.
B_Reynolds_AK
WKR
Wether right or wrong, I square up behind rifle as much as possible and then rest my hand onto the scope, directly in front of the elevation turret.
As I often shoot/hunt alone, spotting impacts is important for me to be able to do. With rifles between 6-7.5 lbs scoped & loaded, I find this helps both steady the light gun before the shot and keeps the muzzle down during the shot. It’s repeatable and precise while shooting regularly out to 800 yards & beyond. I also lean into the rifle as opposed to pulling it back towards me.
As I often shoot/hunt alone, spotting impacts is important for me to be able to do. With rifles between 6-7.5 lbs scoped & loaded, I find this helps both steady the light gun before the shot and keeps the muzzle down during the shot. It’s repeatable and precise while shooting regularly out to 800 yards & beyond. I also lean into the rifle as opposed to pulling it back towards me.
Lawnboi
WKR
What I said above might sound sarcastic but it’s not. Spotting your shots is one of the hardest things to do while shooting. Nailing down exactly where that shot hit. Most can’t even figure out what that looks like through a spotter much less a scope. We all see dust, maybe a little splash after, but actually spotting the point the bullet hit is very hard.
Start with something thats achievable. Shooting a lightweight rifle, in around anything in 6.5cm and up is going to be a bear prone. Forget positional shooting…
Good stock ergonomics make an insane difference. If you’re shooting a stock that dosnt allow straight recoil, there is no winning short of going with a small cartridge. I have had the opportunity to shoot the same barreled action in multiple stocks, the difference is huge.
Personally I have a much easier time with a suppressor. The recoil push is longer but I don’t blink, and don’t react to the blast. At nominal ranges I’d shoot something, say sub 500, that bullet is getting there so fast, that if you blink, you’re only seeing dust, if that’s even there.
Spotting shots in the field also isn’t like at the range or shooting rocks. Grass, snow, damp ground soak up bullets like nothing, and show you nothing. Adding to the challenge. Hitting the range and seeing dust every shot you miss is a far cry from spotting stuff in the field, so when applicable to shoot in field conditions, maybe hit the range on a rainy or snowy day.
Unfortunately this is just a skill that takes alot of rounds on target. Personally one of my favorite ways to practice this is to go crack prairie dogs.
Start with something thats achievable. Shooting a lightweight rifle, in around anything in 6.5cm and up is going to be a bear prone. Forget positional shooting…
Good stock ergonomics make an insane difference. If you’re shooting a stock that dosnt allow straight recoil, there is no winning short of going with a small cartridge. I have had the opportunity to shoot the same barreled action in multiple stocks, the difference is huge.
Personally I have a much easier time with a suppressor. The recoil push is longer but I don’t blink, and don’t react to the blast. At nominal ranges I’d shoot something, say sub 500, that bullet is getting there so fast, that if you blink, you’re only seeing dust, if that’s even there.
Spotting shots in the field also isn’t like at the range or shooting rocks. Grass, snow, damp ground soak up bullets like nothing, and show you nothing. Adding to the challenge. Hitting the range and seeing dust every shot you miss is a far cry from spotting stuff in the field, so when applicable to shoot in field conditions, maybe hit the range on a rainy or snowy day.
Unfortunately this is just a skill that takes alot of rounds on target. Personally one of my favorite ways to practice this is to go crack prairie dogs.
Pour a cup of coffee and check out the .223 thread…
rokslide.com
.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.
DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...
rokslide.com
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Neutral thumb: Inline with bore/tang of rifle. Meaty base of the thumb providing 6 o’clock bracing on grip. Minimizes induced torque and lateral shifts due to clenching, while still offering solid recoil control support with firing hand.
Versus
Thumb over grip: Thumb wrapped around grip in conventional manner. Exaggerates any torque or clenching of hand into lateral shifts, and tends to reduce the trigger fingers ability to break at 90°.
Thumb on side, aka- PRS grip: Totally removes thumb from equation. No torque induced, however zero recoil control support as well.
Jimbee
WKR
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Thanks, appreciate it
wind gypsy
WKR
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Thoughts on the Field stock vs a bravo?
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- Oct 22, 2014
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There’s no comparison. The Field stock metal chassis insert ends just past the action and the forend is pretty flexible- load/twist a bipod and it moves. The grip is good, the forend I like the feel of better- not as wide as the Bravo. However the buttstock is so thin it’s kind of like a blade in shooting- a little hard to control with rear bag, etc.
There are some major fitment issues, however before commenting on that I want to ensure it isn’t something ti do with this action.
There is no use I would choose the Field Stock over a Bravo.
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Haven’t shot them enough to say.
TNKnoxville
WKR
Awesome pics. I was playing around this weekend with thumb position and trying to see what reduced the tension the most and gave me the best control. I was almost correct in hand placement!!!!! Now I can get it right.
For starters get you a great scope. Tangent, ZCO……….. also it depends on the rifle.
My PRS rifle is a 6mm and weighs 25lbs. Zero recoil. I can see the bullet from about 350-800 then see the impact on either the dirt( which is more often than not) and make the corrections from my reticle or on the target. I shoot free recoil with it. I can spot thing prone or from something else. If it is past 800, when I lose the bullet, I am looking for splash.
My hunting rifle. Is a 6.5prc and it has a lot more recoil and it is a lot lighter rifle. 11lb 6oz.
I load the bipod for it and make sure I am square as possible behind the rifle.
Both I rarely go above 15 on my scope. My scope is a ZCO for both rifles. I wanted my rifles to be as close as possible so I am not mixing things up.
THE OTHER BIGGEST KEY IS…. Trigger control. A light poundage trigger is huge. And remember to pin it to win it. That means do not leg go of that trigger until you have made a decision on your correction. I slide my finder across the trigger guard and pull the bottom of the trigger, that way I know it is in the same spot every time. My trigger is set at 13oz.
Practice practice practice. You more than likely won’t see anything within 300 yards. Your eyes just can’t see enough frames per second for that.
My PRS rifle is a 6mm and weighs 25lbs. Zero recoil. I can see the bullet from about 350-800 then see the impact on either the dirt( which is more often than not) and make the corrections from my reticle or on the target. I shoot free recoil with it. I can spot thing prone or from something else. If it is past 800, when I lose the bullet, I am looking for splash.
My hunting rifle. Is a 6.5prc and it has a lot more recoil and it is a lot lighter rifle. 11lb 6oz.
I load the bipod for it and make sure I am square as possible behind the rifle.
Both I rarely go above 15 on my scope. My scope is a ZCO for both rifles. I wanted my rifles to be as close as possible so I am not mixing things up.
THE OTHER BIGGEST KEY IS…. Trigger control. A light poundage trigger is huge. And remember to pin it to win it. That means do not leg go of that trigger until you have made a decision on your correction. I slide my finder across the trigger guard and pull the bottom of the trigger, that way I know it is in the same spot every time. My trigger is set at 13oz.
Practice practice practice. You more than likely won’t see anything within 300 yards. Your eyes just can’t see enough frames per second for that.
I can’t see a baseball pitch, but a pro can, cause his brain can predict it and mine can’t.
Now, imagine if you are trying to learn how to see a fastball but the catcher hits you in the shoulder every time the pitcher releases the pitch. And, imagine that you are wearing glasses that get knocked around…
Training your eye to see at the same time you are trying to train your body/learn how to control recoil is kinda like that.
Besides improving your position, learning how to see is the very best advice. The quickest and cheapest way is to shoot 5000 rounds of 22 lr between 100 and 400 yards.
You must teach your eye and brain to predict how to watch for the bullet. The cycle rate of our eye and time from the light to our brain to consciousness is so fast you can’t see it unless your brain already has the algorithm for it.
The fractions of a second for a bullet to travel only get a few cycles of your eye to brain electrical signal. When you are watching another car traveling next to you in the freeway and it looks like the rim is going backwards, that’s cause your brain doesn’t send a constant message.
Or, as fan/propeller blades start up and you see it spin one way, the reverse, then reverse again, and sometimes again.
When it comes to “position” there are numerous variables and “ways” to shoot.
There are lots of ways that work, but they might be a “cheat” that works prone with a bipod like loading forward hard to trap the rifle. But, you can’t trap the same way on a tripod. And, bench rear shooters want the rifle to recoil and slide back over the front and rear rest. Heavy PRS rifles with brakes and light recoiling cartridges can be free recoiled off barricades.
So, the best thing is to learn the principles and then apply techniques to your rifle, cartridge, and position.
The principles I think of in every shooting position are:
1: recoil starts when the firing pin falls, so freeze all movement, including the trigger finger, because a brake or suppressor doesn’t start to mitigate recoil until the bullet leaves the barrel.
2: recoil travels the path of least resistance, angles and anything touching the rifle influences the direction the rifle moves.
3: a right twist rifle will twist to the left, so block torque that wants to travel that way
4: anything touching the rifle is part of the rifle system and needs to be considered how it will affect the movement of recoil
5: focus the rifle system to absorb recoil in a direct line rearward, eliminating any movement or potential for bounce or push not directly in line with the bore
6: control the rifle as it rebounds forward
7: get as much body weight in front of the rifle, and relax like a bag of meat to absorb the recoil, don’t be like a stiff steel block that makes the rifle bounce
8: use minimum amount of force necessary to control the rifle, gripping and pulling the rifle into your shoulder hard will lead to unintended movement as your muscles are under more tension and contraction.
The advice for a neutral thumb can be analyzed with the principles. In PRS the thumb can rest on the side because of free recoil techniques with a low recoiling rifle system. That is the least amount of influence.
But, a higher recoiling hunting rifle it can’t be free recoiled. So, a thumb on top is best, because it is inline with the bore to control the rifle movement. And, it is more isolated from the trigger finger so you can get a clean press at 90 degrees.
I have found that different positions create different influences on the rifle, and if I don’t practice them, I can control my rifle. So, I nearly exclusively shoot off my tripod in the field and practice it.
There are lots of ways that work, but they might be a “cheat” that works prone with a bipod like loading forward hard to trap the rifle. But, you can’t trap the same way on a tripod. And, bench rear shooters want the rifle to recoil and slide back over the front and rear rest. Heavy PRS rifles with brakes and light recoiling cartridges can be free recoiled off barricades.
So, the best thing is to learn the principles and then apply techniques to your rifle, cartridge, and position.
The principles I think of in every shooting position are:
1: recoil starts when the firing pin falls, so freeze all movement, including the trigger finger, because a brake or suppressor doesn’t start to mitigate recoil until the bullet leaves the barrel.
2: recoil travels the path of least resistance, angles and anything touching the rifle influences the direction the rifle moves.
3: a right twist rifle will twist to the left, so block torque that wants to travel that way
4: anything touching the rifle is part of the rifle system and needs to be considered how it will affect the movement of recoil
5: focus the rifle system to absorb recoil in a direct line rearward, eliminating any movement or potential for bounce or push not directly in line with the bore
6: control the rifle as it rebounds forward
7: get as much body weight in front of the rifle, and relax like a bag of meat to absorb the recoil, don’t be like a stiff steel block that makes the rifle bounce
8: use minimum amount of force necessary to control the rifle, gripping and pulling the rifle into your shoulder hard will lead to unintended movement as your muscles are under more tension and contraction.
The advice for a neutral thumb can be analyzed with the principles. In PRS the thumb can rest on the side because of free recoil techniques with a low recoiling rifle system. That is the least amount of influence.
But, a higher recoiling hunting rifle it can’t be free recoiled. So, a thumb on top is best, because it is inline with the bore to control the rifle movement. And, it is more isolated from the trigger finger so you can get a clean press at 90 degrees.
I have found that different positions create different influences on the rifle, and if I don’t practice them, I can control my rifle. So, I nearly exclusively shoot off my tripod in the field and practice it.
I imagine you don’t index like this? I index with “conventional” stock grip and then move thumb and finger to firing position together as I take the safety off. Is that what you do, or you you index with neutral thumb as well?
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