Snake training for dogs

[MuleyFever]

Anyone have their dog trained for snake avoidance or know dogs that have gone through the training? Wondering how it worked out? Were you happy with it?

Seeing a lot of negative opinions on the traditional shock training.

 

[Jmock97]

The hunting dog podcast nov 20 2015 back with Justin mcgrail
Back with Justin Mcgrail, training with hunting in mind

 

[WyoRob]

Snake training is effective if done correctly. I would still have your dogs vaccinated as well though.

 

[MuleyFever]

Going to do the vaccines for sure.

 

[sab]

One of my dogs got the training the hard way - she got bit on the snout by a diamondback. That was 6 years ago, and she's still afraid of sticks that look like snakes!

My other dog must have learned from her, because he runs away as soon as he smells them. We have a lot of snakes in my area.

I would think the training would be very effective, since dogs are pretty smart critters...

Regards,
Scott

 

[Mike7]

I had my last dog snake trained by a local hunting club in Southern Cal while I was there in the military, so that I could more safely take him to the desert for quail hunts there on the weekends. It took about 1/2 hour and they had many dogs they were giving the training. It worked great seemingly for desert hunting that summer. He was trained when he was between 1 and 2 years old there.

I don't know how many snakes he avoided that I never saw while hunting, because the dogs just seem to totally avoid the snakes and don't alert or anything like they would for a game animal, and instead just keep on hunting.

We don't have rattlesnakes here where I bird hunt and hike, so I suspect it had been several years since he had seen/smelled a rattlesnake. But when he was about 7 years old he very likely saved someone in the family while backpacking in the Weneha from getting a rattlesnake bite far from medical help. Twice on one backpacking trip, he just stopped in the trail and wouldn't go any further without looping off trail. Both times with closer inspection there was a large rattlesnake laying in the shade quietly under a bush right next to the hiking trail.

 

[MuleyFever]

Mike, when you did the training did any of the dogs seam to take the correction badly? I see articles where the concern is the dogs will get aggressive with the correction or not relate it to the snake but something else. I also believe that some of it is just animal lovers that complain about the negative correction because the dog may experience pain.

 

[Mike7]

I didn't see any bad reactions, but they had the owners back a ways. They had lots of snakes in cages with some spread a ways apart, hidden in the sage brush. The dogs got corrected for any response to the snakes other than avoidance. Any interest, whether just curiosity or aggression got a correction it seemed. At the end, they had me call my dog across a large field and he sprinted to me, but took wide paths around any snakes which I could see were hidden in the sage brush of that field by marking ribbons. It seemed no different than when I took him into town at night as a pup where a bunch of deer winter and had to light him up just when he chased deer. He didn't get shocked for anything except for chasing. He was still interested in deer in a nonaggressive fashion, but knew not to chase.

 

[Tod osier]

Mike, when you did the training did any of the dogs seam to take the correction badly? I see articles where the concern is the dogs will get aggressive with the correction or not relate it to the snake but something else. I also believe that some of it is just animal lovers that complain about the negative correction because the dog may experience pain.

One of my labs also self trained the hard way. My other lab seems to avoid them so far. Were it an option, I would do it without hesitation. My experience with having a dog get bit makes the benefit really clear. Do it if you can.

 

[Billinsd]

We used to have snake avoidance training in our Quail Forever Chapter to make money for guzzler projects. Some dogs are vocal, some are not, they all react differently. I remember we did not take HUGE dogs, because even with 2 dog handlers the dog could pull their arms out of their sockets. Some dogs wanted to run like hell, some lied down. Sometimes it was a rodeo!!

It's critical that the trainer is competent!!! This cannot be overstated. Shock collar training/pain avoidance is what I have seen used. There is a lot of emotion and ignorance when it comes to shock collar training. Shock training like snake avoidance training is fine, so long as the trainer is competent, which is critical. It's not rocket science and is a bit of an art, or rather takes patience, being able to read the dog, and TIMING.

All my dogs either weren't concerned bout the snake, or like most walked right up to it to check it out. I met some guys who's dogs had gotten bit and never learned from their experience. A couple guys said their dogs were bitten twice in a couple years and never learned. This makes sense if you ever witness snake avoidance training, because the training is very intensive. One bad experience from a bite, is usually not enough of a deterrent.

The first training takes the longest and is the hardest. The dog usually gets anxious and uncomfortable to what is happening. The trainer will let the dog settle down, because when it is real upset it isn't learning before progressing.

I have taken my dogs once a year for refresher training and after 4 or 5 years they really seem to get it and don't seem to need more training. Each subsequent year my dogs need less and less training, because they remember. You can tell if a dog has been trained before by the way it reacts.

The vaccine is not a vaccine, it is anti venom. It can be given as much as once every 6 months and that is what I do. There is a lot of ignorance with the vaccine as well. I read in the local newspaper where a local woman accused the vaccine of killing her dog. She said that her dog got the vaccine and was bite by a rattler. She took the dog to the vet and the vet said to take the dog home, because it had no symptoms. The woman said she took the dog home and it died, so she blamed the vaccine. Then she wanted to rally against the vaccine and get it banned, which was ridiculous!!! Who knows what really happened.

The vaccine works in that it is an anti venom and if I dog is bitten it has resistance to the venom. What happens after a dog is bitten depends on a lot of things. How much venom the snake gave the dog if any. Where the dog was bitten. Some dogs show little reaction some show more.

Whether your dog had the vaccine or not if it gets bitten it should be observed until it is determined it is ok. Taking your dog to a competent vet is critical as is having good common sense.

Cheers,
Bill

 

[LostArra]

One of my dogs got the training the hard way - she got bit on the snout by a diamondback. That was 6 years ago, and she's still afraid of sticks that look like snakes!

My other dog must have learned from her, because he runs away as soon as he smells them. We have a lot of snakes in my area.

I would think the training would be very effective, since dogs are pretty smart critters...

Regards,
Scott

Same here. My redbone and a copperhead. She was a fearless dog but after that first bite she could smell a copperhead and would get no closer than 25 yds. She let everyone know about it though.
She was a very protective dog and got struck a second time when my wife almost stepped on one.

 

[jmez]

The vaccine is not an anti venom, two different products. The vaccine is prepared from Western Diamondback venom and stimulates an immune response in the dog where they produce antibiodies to the components in the snake venom.

 

[Tod osier]

The vaccine is not an anti venom, two different products. The vaccine is prepared from Western Diamondback venom and stimulates an immune response in the dog where they produce antibiodies to the components in the snake venom.

Yes and venoms are a cocktail of different agents with different functions. Different snake species have different constituents and ratios of constituents within their venom and there are even geographic differences in venom makeup within single species. In my understanding the vaccine works against generic components of the venom and there are certainly opportunities for problems - a one size fits most kinda situation. I've used it and would use it again. My younger lab seems to avoid them quite well and hasn't shown any curiosity.

 

[Davebuech]

Well said. I will add that the vaccine is really just to buy you some time. All my dogs have vaccine and last year one got bit in the nose by a Praire rattler. Barely made it to the vet in time (40 minutes) but upon immediate treatment (no anti venom shot required) he fully recovered. He has since learned not to stick his nose in rabbit holes!

Yes and venoms are a cocktail of different agents with different functions. Different snake species have different constituents and ratios of constituents within their venom and there are even geographic differences in venom makeup within single species. In my understanding the vaccine works against generic components of the venom and there are certainly opportunities for problems - a one size fits most kinda situation. I've used it and would use it again. My younger lab seems to avoid them quite well and hasn't shown any curiosity.

 

[jmez]

That is true. There is very little clinical evidence available on the rattlesnake vaccine. There is none that shows that is effective. It is made from Western Diamondback and in a clinical trial with mice it offered good protection against the Western Diamondback but little to no protection against the Mojave. So it is questionable how much cross species protection there is with the vaccine.

Vaccines for animals don't have to go through a real rigorous approval process by the FDA. You have to prove that they are safe for administration and that they offer a "reasonable" expectation for efficacy. You have to provide 0 proof that they actually work.

There was one study done in Az where they looked at snakebites from several emergency clinics in Maricopa county over a two year period. There were close to 300 dogs in the study. Vaccine administration had no significant effect on morbidity, mortality, or treatment cost.

 

[El Gavilan]

I've had 2 of my dogs snake avoidance trained for the last 5 years and it has worked well. I live on the edge of the desert and walk my dogs every morning on a 2 mile walk. We also get diamondbacks in our yard on occasion and the snake trained dogs avoid them at all costs. We recently adopted a rescue pup and had him snake vaccinated but not snake trained. He was bitten on the nose by a diamondback and was taken to the vet within 1 hour. Two days later he was completely normal. We have since avoidance trained him and given the other 2 a refresher course using a road killed diamondback. It just flat works and the vaccine is very beneficial in recovery after a bite.


Sent from the Arizona desert

 

[mtnkid85]

I did it with my 1yr old GSP, through our local pointers club. She seemed to take it well. About a month or two afterwards we came across a rattler and she wanted nothing to do with it!
The training was maybe a little "heavy handed" but it was over quickly and didn't negatively effect her.

 

[Matt W.]

I had a similar question and thought I would drag up this old thread rather than start a new one....

1) Snake Avoidance Training - best way to determine a qualified trainer?
2) Snake Bite Treatment - Read an interesting article about keeping liquid Benadryl on hand and using it to buy time to get to a vet. ??? For those that hunt with dogs in snake country, what do you carry for treatment after a potential bite?

 

[Jordan Budd]

Interested in this as well. We are getting both our labs the vaccine, but this training looks interesting.

 

[jmez]

Benadryl won't help with a snakebite. Good for bee stings or other types of allergic reactions.