Smaller Bore Match Bullets for Brown Bear or Moose (and other big critters)

[Luke S]

Okay I’ve read the 223 thread (I think I read it all, it took a while). I’m convinced the .223 will do the job for normal big game hunting in the US.

Now, I hunt grizzlies in Alaska and always used a .375 Ruger. It has a 16 inch barrel and I’ve downloaded it a bit (260 grain Nosler Partition about about 2500 fps) so it is very manageable as “bear guns” go. More importantly than hunting is the fact that this rifle is my backup gun when I take my kids and friend’s kids hunting and we might get into a rodeo with a grizzly, either because of a charge or because a kid makes a bad shot.

For anything besides grizzlies we have used a 308, 358, and occasionally a few other calibers. There always seemed to be a clear “step up” in performance when I compared the 308, 358 and 375 using traditional lead bullets. As the bullet diameter goes up you get more wounding. So the logic was always that I would use the .375 in scary situations because it would make the widest wound of the three and punch through the most bear.

After reading the .223 thread I’m wondering about changing my approach. My question is what would I give up over the 375 if I drop down to the 308 as a bear defense gun?

Based on the 223 thread I assume a 168 grain ELDM or ELDX will make a mess of a bear’s chest cavity with a broadside shot. I’m assuming that will be at least as effective as my .375 with traditional bullets. So broadside HUNTING shots, a .308 would be safe (and probably other calibers but I have a .308 I like). I’m interested in reports of such kills but its not news that a broadside hit with a smaller caliber has dropped many grizzlies.

What gives me more pause is potentially losing penetration if I move away from the heavier bullets. I know a big caliber won’t kill a bear from any angle with a bad shot. Will a .308 match bullet punch through a grizzly shoulder? How about a skull shot. Nose on, a 30-30 will work I know. Head down right into the skull? For reference the bear in my avatar was shot in the shoulder. He rolled over and I made a between the eyes shot with my .375 (his head was angled down, normally that would be too high). The bear dropped instantly but the bullet never exited the base of the skull. Makes me wonder if a lighter bullet would have done the job. Again this is not just hunting, I want the best I can get if a kid's life is on the line. I can handle recoil for a 5 yard shot but why bother if something else is as good.

So fire away. Anyone kill a grizzly with a small caliber and match bullets? What about less then ideal shots? What bullets would give the best performance? I have 168 ELDMs so that is the "easy button." I could probably handload something else if it was significantly better.

 

[Johnboy041586]

Little disappointing, as much caliber debating that goes on here. We get nothing for discussion when it comes to truly needed an appropriate caliber to save your life?

I'll put my 2 cents in though(not an expert by any means), maybe stir the pot a little for the discussion. Is a large caliber truly needed considering most (not all) of us in Alaska agree that 10mm handguns are capable rounds for brown bear defense. Why is a smallish caliber rifle not capable of defending against brown bear up close but a pistol is?

 

[Luke S]

I use a 10mm because I think it's the most practical handgun for that role. I'd take a 308 or 6.5 Creedmoor over it any day of the week if I had a choice though. What I wonder is if the increased power of a bigger rifle is necessary with today's bullets. I think I'd feel fine taking a broadside shot at a grizzly with a 308. Now if I had to go find a wounded bear in thick brush? I don't know. I know a .375 works. Will a 308 with proper bullets work as well or at least "close enough" to where increased rate of fire makes up for it

 

[Johnboy041586]

I don't disagree. At home in kodiak I carry a 6.5 grendel/10mm side arm and feel comfortable with it, when I'm not actively looking for bears. Others I know disagree, so I look forward to someone hopefully chiming in with some real world experience. The only brown bear I've shot was with a 300wm, it definitely does the trick but wonder if you could get by with less

 

[Tmac]

Little disappointing, as much caliber debating that goes on here. We get nothing for discussion when it comes to truly needed an appropriate caliber to save your life?

I'll put my 2 cents in though(not an expert by any means), maybe stir the pot a little for the discussion. Is a large caliber truly needed considering most (not all) of us in Alaska agree that 10mm handguns are capable rounds for brown bear defense. Why is a smallish caliber rifle not capable of defending against brown bear up close but a pistol is?

Not many of us have killed a grizz/brown is my guess. Most are NR’s and guides get picky on what you can shoot. So those that have killed one likely did not use “small calibers and match bullets“. All I could offer is guesses and reliance on what has worked in the past for others when going in after a wounded bear. My buddy stopped one with one shot from a 12ga with a slug.

I know I’d want a fairly large caliber for the follow up job as I have zero confidence in a cns hit on a charging bear. A heavier bullet ups my odds of quicker incapacitation or at least turning the bear. 220 grains out of an 06 is about the minimum of where I’d be for a bear rodeo. I have had to stop a charging cougar, it happens very fast and it's basically aiming where it is the largest and shooting, very quickly. I suspect a bear would come just as fast.

 

[Thegman]

I doubt many of us have any real practical experience shooting charging bears. I know I have zero experience to add. Have never even been bluff charged by a bear that I can recall.

I have killed a grizzly with a 168BT, which is probably similar to the 168ELDX mentioned, but it was a broadside shot, so not really what you're asking.

More than once I've followed up on grizzlies with a 30-06 or 308 and haven't thought I needed a bigger rifle while tracking.

The only grizzly I shot head on did drop on the spot from a 30-06, so in my very limited experience with that kind of shot, a 308ish rifle has been fine.

 

[cowdisciple]

Seems like for optimum bear defense you'd still want the 77 tmks, just a whole bunch of them out of a gas gun.

 

[Alder_]

I think the optimum bear rifle is an AR10 platform in a pick your flavor 308/338Fed/358win

Or AR15 with a 458 SOCOM something along those lines.

With a quick to acquire red dot and multiple rounds that don't require manipulating the action.

 

[Luke S]

I've only shot two grizzly bears. First was a single broadside hit. Second wasa broadside followed up very quickly with a head shot. I didn't do a full autopsy but both side hits stopped under the hide. Wounds appeared wide. Smaller animals like caribou had smaller wounds from the 375 but always an exit.

I think grizzly ribs are midway in size between moose and caribou. I think a grizzly has a more rounded chest compared to a moose so a 600 pound grizzly probably has about as much chest to punch through as a 1000 pound moose. When I look at 1000 pound plus brown bears I have serious questions about how a small bore would work.

 

[Big_Sky_Guy]

I guess my take would be if you've already got the 375 and are comfortable shooting it, why take the chance?

Can it be done? Sure it can. Grizzlies have been killed with a lot smaller caliber/cartridge, but do you want to gamble with you and your kids lives?

Go big Man!

 

[Luke S]

Valid point Big Sky. On the other hand... I just saw a 308 with a 150 gr SST go through a moose and stop under the hide, just like premium. 225 gr 358 Winchester bullets. And my 375 did the same thing on two different grizzlies. So I'm not sure penatration will be that different. Not sure how a 30 cal ELDX or ELDM would compare to a premium 375 for wound diameter. And I can get follow ups a bit faster in my 308.

 

[Big_Sky_Guy]

I wouldn't question the penetraton of a quality 30 cal bullet, but there is going to be a lot more energy transfer with your 375.

I wouldn't have much issue using a .308 Win under "normal" hunting conditions, but you did specially state that your main role is going to be back-up for when/if things go south. Under those circumstances I just can't help but feel bigger is better.

 

[ThunderJack49]

I've shot zero grizzlies. But I think an AR-15, 556, with a flashlight, red dot and suppressor makes a compelling case for itself in many scenarios if I am packing a rifle strictly in defense of the family. TMKs obviously kill, and I want to be able to stack rounds on top of each other as aggressively as possibly vs needing to connect with a larger caliber and possibly not get a follow up shot. I could be very wrong about this, it is just a thought exercise for me. Living in Montana, I prefer the AR for those above reasons if I'm in camp or at my house (bears and lions come through). I have a weapon light if it is dark, a sling if i need my hands, and a red dot that is very fast. The suppressor also means we are not all being stunned from the noise and concussion.

 

[Luke S]

I believe Form has stated he would use a similar setup if the focus was bear defense not hunting. I'm not quit there yet but I have an open mind. My current thoughts are that a smaller caliber might do well enough that the lower recoil and faster follow ups would be a better tradeoff.
I did see that Sierra makes a 390 gr ATip bullet in 375. I wonder what that would do on a bear?

 

[rayporter]

let Darwin sort em out

 

[Ozarkansas]

With charging animals, you might need to penetrate a LOT more of the animal to do immediate damage than you would on a broadside shot if you miss the skull/spine. African PH logic probably says you would want something that can break a bear’s shoulder after traveling through 8” of neck muscle, or even break a bear’s pelvis or femur after traveling through 6’ of bear.

The counter argument to this would be that you can probably put 5+ rounds on target with an AR in the time it takes to fire a .375 bolt gun twice

 

[StupidLightweight]

You won't find many people who've used the .308 and match bullets on big bears, but I believe it might be the ultimate option when you consider recoil, energy transfer, ballistics through short barrels, and wound channel size. I've killed one brownie, so no expert, but I have read accounts from the mid 1900s of hunters using smaller cartridges (.22 Savage Hi-Power, .250 Savage, .220 Swift) on big animals (bears, lions, tigers, etc.) and most commented on how quick the deaths were.

Now, these hunters were simply using what was new and available, but the same equation from 1930 — speed + frangible bullets = massive trauma — is only more applicable today. Ultimately, I'd say give it a go. If anything, I'd venture that mid-size rounds from 6mm CM to .308 with match bullets will kill faster than the big-bores using premium, controlled-expansion bullets.

On my brown bear hunt last fall, I used a .338 Win. Mag. One shot and he dropped in his tracks. After reading the .223/77 TMK thread, if I were to do the same hunt tomorrow, I'd take a 6mm Creedmoor.

 

[Formidilosus]

With charging animals, you might need to penetrate a LOT more of the animal to do immediate damage than you would on a broadside shot if you miss the skull/spine. African PH logic probably says you would want something that can break a bear’s shoulder after traveling through 8” of neck muscle, or even break a bear’s pelvis or femur after traveling through 6’ of bear.

The only way to physiologically incapacitate (stop) a living creature immediately is by disrupting the CNS.

The counter argument to this would be that you can probably put 5+ rounds on target with an AR in the time it takes to fire a .375 bolt gun twice

For the same skill level of shooter- that is very skilled with both bolt action 375 and AR’s, it’s about 12-16 rounds of 223 from an AR in the time it takes to shoot 2 rounds of 375 from a bolt action. 1 sec for first shot, then between 2 and 3 seconds to reload and place second shot with bolt action 375 for a total of 3 to 4 seconds; versus 1 second for first shot and .15 splits between shots for 12-16 shots with the AR for that same 3 to 4 seconds.

 

[Ozarkansas]

The only way to physiologically incapacitate (stop) a living creature immediately is by disrupting the CNS

In terms of stopping all functions sure, but wouldn’t shattering the pelvis or breaking both shoulders effectively stop a bear from covering ground? I’ve never seen an animal stay mobile after taking out 2 or more limbs

 

[gerry35]

You definitely can kill a grizzly with a 223 given a good shot into the vitals. Having to defend yourself from a bear is a whole different ball game. Those who don't have experience hunting big bears are the ones who think a small bore gun is a good idea. Those of us who do have experience know at some point the small gun guys are going to find out the hard way about it's limitations. I have read a lot of that cursed 223 thread and know it can work but it's an echo chamber in there and tell you it's a bad idea but some won't listen.

With modern bullets you sure can get much better performance than we used to get. For example a 30-06 or 300 magnum with one of the heavy 'match" style bullets is going to open up a huge hole and do a lot of damage. Probably could even go a bit smaller than a 30 cal too and get that kind of perfomance.