Small caliber regret

[KyleR1985]

This JUST happened to a friend. Hit square in the back hips, broadside, never moved. DRT. Best I can guess it shocked the nerves and then proceeded to bleed out extremely fast.

I stopped to picked up a road hit whitetail a while back. Put my brights in his eyes and swung around behind him with the intent to grab rack (spindly little spike/3pt) and cut throat. He was barely able to lift his head. Just as I made my move a car came from behind me and he turned his head and saw me. I was committed at that point and it turned into a little bit of a wrestle match for a few seconds. Feel bad for the family that drove up on that.

Brought the deer home and processed it. The only internal damage I could find was his hip ball was cracked, and a slow bleed out of artery in his leg, either caused by bone splinter or what I imagine was a pretty stretched muscle/artery from impact. Spine all looked intact no internal bleeding otherwise. I have to imagine I overlooked something, but the deer looked complete fine other than the hip.

A bullet anywhere near a deers pelvis, hips, spine, of pretty much any flavor, is an incapacitated deer. Too much infrastructure.

 

[CJ_BG]

A lot of fluff is online about how every elk or deer is as easy to kill, and that’s just not correct unless you believe every animal will turn for a good angle. If you mind waiting for good shooting angles within the limitation of the cartridge/bullet then sure, use the smallest thing that will kill it if you want to. For most of my adult life I’ve enjoyed focusing on antler or horn size and early on had a tremendous mulie just walk into the trees because the shot angle was outside of the limitations of the rifle. Since then I will never feel under gunned trophy hunting with a 7 mag or larger since I’ve already paid the price once for carrying a less capable combination. Real life comes with a lot of less than ideal situations.

Are you really willing to pass up a big deer or elk at an angle like this? Nothing wrong with your answer either way, but more than once I’ve seen first hand how big talk about shooting ethics go out the window quickly. (Cue the dude saying he shoots everything at 500 yards in the neck and has never lost an animal, or a 223 would easily kill it.)

View attachment 961987

Another case for a bullet that fragments a lot that you can place accurately. You're gonna have a helluva time getting through enough deer and still reaching the heart, best you could really hope for is single lung and liver.

Or just put it up in the top 1/3 of the closest leg where the spine, hip, and femoral artery are all in close proximity. Animals don't move well with a broken hip, paralyzed legs, and bleeding profusely.

 

[RockAndSage]

a suppressed 25/06

This sounds pretty interesting - have been thinking of .25-06 AI and .257 Weatherby as some kind of eventual upper target or limit on cartridge size, but with a more modernized gun (shorter, suppressed, Rokstock, etc).

I'm really curious what the upper limit of my personal performance would be, in being able to match what I can do with .223 at the moment. Just how much additional recoil before performance starts dropping off.

Awhile back I started seeing something of a parallel between rifle cartridges, and the progression of new military pilots in increasingly high-performance aircraft. So, .22LR and .223 being the equivalent as basic pilot training in a sedate, single-engine prop job, right? As you get a command of that aircraft, the sensory and mental loading go up significantly as platform performance goes up - and the things that used to require a lot of concentration need to be rote, second-nature before adding additional levels of concentration and loading.

Something similar definitely seems to happen as a rifle's recoil goes up. The core fundamentals need to be so rote and ingrained that zero conscious concentration is necessary...or you need increasing levels of conscious, diligent focus as performance/recoil goes up.

So...what's my current upper limit? What would it take to see no difference is accuracy and speed, on demand in a pressured situation, between .223 and, say, 6mm-06, or .25-06 AI etc?

 

[RancherJohn]

A lot of fluff is online about how every elk or deer is as easy to kill, and that’s just not correct unless you believe every animal will turn for a good angle. If you mind waiting for good shooting angles within the limitation of the cartridge/bullet then sure, use the smallest thing that will kill it if you want to. For most of my adult life I’ve enjoyed focusing on antler or horn size and early on had a tremendous mulie just walk into the trees because the shot angle was outside of the limitations of the rifle. Since then I will never feel under gunned trophy hunting with a 7 mag or larger since I’ve already paid the price once for carrying a less capable combination. Real life comes with a lot of less than ideal situations.

Are you really willing to pass up a big deer or elk at an angle like this? Nothing wrong with your answer either way, but more than once I’ve seen first hand how big talk about shooting ethics go out the window quickly. (Cue the dude saying he shoots everything at 500 yards in the neck and has never lost an animal, or a 223 would easily kill it.)

View attachment 961987

The Texas heart shot, from our favorite Texan. And no, that's not a shot I would take nor would I teach/endorse others to take on big game, whether on a BOAL or a doe of a lifetime. The animal deserves better.

You’re always the same. Lol

Pot, meet kettle. I'm shocked that anyone would listen to you at this point, on anything; and it scares me that I might share the woods with them at some point. You apparently learned everything 40 years ago, then stopped taking in new information and testing it on your own.

Lol


Lol
You think the more times you repeat yourself, the more people believe your advice.

I just lay out what I personally believe and why, and people can take it however they want, give a good thought or not even pay attention to it, but you sound offended and feelings are hurt when someone doesn’t believe your view of the world.

The one story you have to support your side of a single cow elk making it 400 yards after "a good shot". No pictures, no dating of the event, not even info on the bullet you used. Meanwhile, almost everyone else with recent experience has had the opposite results than you and posts evidence to prove it.

You obviously don’t pay much attention to details. I was talking the same construction of bullets. You guys are so upset anyone would suggest that hunters have found the 6mms to be lacking, that it’s funny. If you like them great, all I’ve suggested is every bullet has its limitations, which I would have thought you’d agree with.

Show the class all those hunters that have found modern 6mm bullets lacking in terminal performance. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence both in this thread and others that prove that statement to be absolutely false. Maybe it's in that thread about bullet failures on big game...

You want to bla bla bla all day about how people describe shots, like they have no idea, but only you do, like you discovered hunting. It’s funny.

You loosely describe shots you've taken or situations you've been in, then deflect and attempt to insult others that ask for more information on your shots. Other members here describe shots, then post multiple pictures detailing the impact & exit location and the terminal effects of the bullet including MV, impact velocity, and type of bullet.

Based on the way you talk, I would expect to see dozens of pictures of your success in the large caliber success thread. I would also expect you to be able to add pictures to the threads for smaller calibers, given that you're always talking about how many new hunters you take out and how small calibers are only good for them. You don't even have to show if it was a buck or doe, bull or cow; but literally ANYTHING to substantiate your claims that go against the vast majority of experiences from a large number of other members here.

As to calling someone out for going bla bla bla all day, you have 5,851 posts in 848 days on this forum, for an average of 6.90 posts per day whereas the guy you claim just talks all day long has an average of 3.16 posts per day.

Maybe you should put down your .458 Keyboard Magnum and go hunt, get some evidence of what you proclaim to be the truth, then see how it stacks up against others. If you aren't here to learn, then why are you here?

 

[Rock’N Tacos]

Velocity trumps BC out to most realistic hunting yardages within the chambering. Food for thought.

One of my 22CM barrels is stamped…

I have run the numbers several times. I am comfortable taking long shots when the wind is right. A 147eldm out of my 6.5 prc or a 175 berger out of my 280 AI kills the 108’s in my 6 CM at 1000 yards.

I realize not everybody has the ability to consider shots that long on big game, but I feel like it is in my wheelhouse.

If your shots are limited to 500 yards, it really doesn’t matter.

Wind is so inconsistent when hunting big mountains and shooting across canyons that I feel like very high bc bullets is a huge benefit.

Also, you sound like a salesman for hammer bullets.

 

[TaperPin]

The Texas heart shot, from our favorite Texan. And no, that's not a shot I would take nor would I teach/endorse others to take on big game, whether on a BOAL or a doe of a lifetime. The animal deserves better.



Pot, meet kettle. I'm shocked that anyone would listen to you at this point, on anything; and it scares me that I might share the woods with them at some point. You apparently learned everything 40 years ago, then stopped taking in new information and testing it on your own.



The one story you have to support your side of a single cow elk making it 400 yards after "a good shot". No pictures, no dating of the event, not even info on the bullet you used. Meanwhile, almost everyone else with recent experience has had the opposite results than you and posts evidence to prove it.



Show the class all those hunters that have found modern 6mm bullets lacking in terminal performance. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence both in this thread and others that prove that statement to be absolutely false. Maybe it's in that thread about bullet failures on big game...



You loosely describe shots you've taken or situations you've been in, then deflect and attempt to insult others that ask for more information on your shots. Other members here describe shots, then post multiple pictures detailing the impact & exit location and the terminal effects of the bullet including MV, impact velocity, and type of bullet.

Based on the way you talk, I would expect to see dozens of pictures of your success in the large caliber success thread. I would also expect you to be able to add pictures to the threads for smaller calibers, given that you're always talking about how many new hunters you take out and how small calibers are only good for them. You don't even have to show if it was a buck or doe, bull or cow; but literally ANYTHING to substantiate your claims that go against the vast majority of experiences from a large number of other members here.

As to calling someone out for going bla bla bla all day, you have 5,851 posts in 848 days on this forum, for an average of 6.90 posts per day whereas the guy you claim just talks all day long has an average of 3.16 posts per day.

Maybe you should put down your .458 Keyboard Magnum and go hunt, get some evidence of what you proclaim to be the truth, then see how it stacks up against others. If you aren't here to learn, then why are you here?

Form and I haven’t had a constructive conversation in a couple years, and probably never will going forward. He knows it and I know it. If it wasn’t obvious from my replies it was a way of saying bug off. It’s nice of you to be so concerned though.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I have run the numbers several times. I am comfortable taking long shots when the wind is right. A 147eldm out of my 6.5 prc or a 175 berger out of my 280 AI kills the 108’s in my 6 CM at 1000 yards.

I realize not everybody has the ability to consider shots that long on big game, but I feel like it is in my wheelhouse.

If your shots are limited to 500 yards, it really doesn’t matter.

Wind is so inconsistent when hunting big mountains and shooting across canyons that I feel like very high bc bullets is a huge benefit.

Also, you sound like a salesman for hammer bullets.

Running the numbers instead of going out and shooting? Sounds about right…

If you think the cartridge is the difference between 1,000 yard kills and misses it’s def not “in your wheelhouse” sorry.

 

[solarshooter]

After I saw the fist sized hole my 6CM made in an elk, my only regret is not being able to hunt with 22cal in my state. Now I have to figure out if my other gun gets rebarreled to a fast 6 wildcat or a 16" downloaded featherweight 6CM... choices choices.

 

[RancherJohn]

Form and I haven’t had a constructive conversation in a couple years, and probably never will going forward. He knows it and I know it. If it wasn’t obvious from my replies it was a way of saying bug off. It’s nice of you to be so concerned though.

You've only been here a couple years, so does that mean never?

I see him & others asking you questions based on declarative posts you make, I see you deflecting and insulting anyone that asks for clarifications on what you post. This happens in multiple threads across the forum. Are they wrong for asking you things about what you post? Do you think you can improve your messaging, adding more details and photos so there isn't room for questions, alleviating the need for others to try to suss things out? If one of the many people you teach how to shoot and hunt asks a question, how do you answer it?

You have an amazing platform on Rokslide, one where you can easily prove what you say; yet you never do.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

This sounds pretty interesting - have been thinking of .25-06 AI and .257 Weatherby as some kind of eventual upper target or limit on cartridge size, but with a more modernized gun (shorter, suppressed, Rokstock, etc).

Did someone say suppressed .25-06? FN action, 1:8” twist, 24” Douglas barrel, SWFA 10x, OG 6.5. Coming soon to a Virginia hayfield or pasture! I spoke to Alpine Rifles about potentially having a wooden RokStok made for it this offseason (one of the reasons I have three nice rifles up for sale).

 

[OneMore]

Turned out to be a great thread. I knew it might poke the bear a little.

 

[WYO2011]

In 2024 I was pretty much against the small calibers, but instead of being a stick in the mud I built a 6GT using factory 109eldms and this year a buddy and a couple other people have now put down 3 bulls all one shot kills. One bull went about 15yds the other 45yds the last one which wasn’t a perfect shot went about 80yds. To say I’m sold is an understatement, people that are so against it, have simply not tried it. Also we took a small tape measure in the mountains and elk are not wide. Behind the shoulders was about 14” and on the shoulders was about 16.5”.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

It’s to the point that I’m probably not even going to mess with anything else under .264 (unless out of boredom), because the 22CM is seriously legit.

I had EVERYTHING to build a 25 PRC. Once I put my 22CM barrel back on, I remembered that it would be pointless, and sold all the 25 PRC shit lol.

Yeah man. My 22 Creeds really do pretty much obsolete my 6 creeds and 243s. I need to jump up to a fast 6.5 to really gain any killing advantage.

But I did just kill a big game animal with a 308 so obviously I’m still not that cool.

 

[TaperPin]

You've only been here a couple years, so does that mean never?

I see him & others asking you questions based on declarative posts you make, I see you deflecting and insulting anyone that asks for clarifications on what you post. This happens in multiple threads across the forum. Are they wrong for asking you things about what you post? Do you think you can improve your messaging, adding more details and photos so there isn't room for questions, alleviating the need for others to try to suss things out? If one of the many people you teach how to shoot and hunt asks a question, how do you answer it?

You have an amazing platform on Rokslide, one where you can easily prove what you say; yet you never do.

I’m well past the age where I feel like I have to prove anything to anyone online. When guys want to start trolling by misrepresenting something I’ve said I have no patience for it, and feel no obligation to waste time correcting the inaccuracies of what they are trolling with. What I tell kids who are trying to sort out fact from fiction is when someone has stories that seem to change over time to not trust anything they have to say, because they have a loose relationship with the truth and simply can’t remember the bs they said a few months ago.

You can’t get good at anything if you aren’t open to learning new things and changing how things are done, but only if the new things are actually better and not just different.

High BC heavy for caliber bullets are new and I’ve learned a lot from the characters here and have said so. I've gone so far as suggesting Form and the funky bunch should write a hunting book on it because there are a lot of guys like me that aren’t interested in being early adopters, but are constantly curious about all aspects of hunting, reloading and different cartridges. However, the performance of cup and core bullets is nothing new. Ballistic tips sure look about like an ELD-X when shot into jello and those are as old my high school year book. In the last year I picked up a fairly nice benchrest grade 22 Creed barrel to shoot heavies out of, which doesn’t sound like something an old Fudd would do.

Before the 6 ARC came along I’ve had a fast twist 6BR that shoots heavy bullets quite well. I tell the kids any time they want to smoke a deer with it they are welcome, but the next big game I take with 6mm will be the new to me 28” 6mm-06 that makes a 6 creed look slow. Somehow it’s me that is stuck 40 years ago?

 

[rbutcher1234]

I wonder if anyone would (or has) gone to Africa in a dangerous game situation and taken a .223 with 77tmk. (Other than I don’t think it’s legal in Africa lol)

But I wonder if they seriously would..


I’m picturing a fancy English double rifle chambered in .223 lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not dangerous game, but I literally am taking a 223 and 77tmk to Africa in 2027 for plains game.

 

[Rock’N Tacos]

Running the numbers instead of going out and shooting? Sounds about right…

If you think the cartridge is the difference between 1,000 yard kills and misses it’s def not “in your wheelhouse” sorry.

Brutal - I am new but notice you consistently accuse people of not shooting much. What’s your deal? You have no idea how much I or anybody else shoots.

How I am I off here? Its not the cartridge, its the BCs. I never claimed it was the cartridge. Hopefully there is a block option on this forum like there is in others. My desire to get into it with keyboard ninja nobodys is zero.

Seriously, who is this guy and why is everybody ok with him constantly criticizing other when it is unwarranted?

 

[RancherJohn]

I’m well past the age where I feel like I have to prove anything to anyone online. When guys want to start trolling by misrepresenting something I’ve said I have no patience for it, and feel no obligation to waste time correcting the inaccuracies of what they are trolling with. What I tell kids who are trying to sort out fact from fiction is when someone has stories that seem to change over time to not trust anything they have to say, because they have a loose relationship with the truth and simply can’t remember the bs they said a few months ago.

You can’t get good at anything if you aren’t open to learning new things and changing how things are done, but only if the new things are actually better and not just different.

High BC heavy for caliber bullets are new and I’ve learned a lot from the characters here and have said so. I've gone so far as suggesting Form and the funky bunch should write a hunting book on it because there are a lot of guys like me that aren’t interested in being early adopters, but are constantly curious about all aspects of hunting, reloading and different cartridges. However, the performance of cup and core bullets is nothing new. Ballistic tips sure look about like an ELD-X when shot into jello and those are as old my high school year book. In the last year I picked up a fairly nice benchrest grade 22 Creed barrel to shoot heavies out of, which doesn’t sound like something an old Fudd would do.

Before the 6 ARC came along I’ve had a fast twist 6BR that shoots heavy bullets quite well. I tell the kids any time they want to smoke a deer with it they are welcome, but the next big game I take with 6mm will be the new to me 28” 6mm-06 that makes a 6 creed look slow. Somehow it’s me that is stuck 40 years ago?

I am not sure who you are referring to trolling in the thread earlier, as the interaction began with you posting a shot up the ass of a deer as a reason to shoot a larger caliber. When asked for clarification on how many times you had done that, and the results of such, you immediately deflected into ignoring and insulting rather than offering your evidence of X number of kills over Y number of years, bullets from A to E, MV and impact of XXXX & XXXX, etc... Which actually could have moved the thread forward instead of turning it into another one of your trainwrecks.

You say you're open to learning then admit you haven't used any of the smaller calibers with high BC, heavy for caliber bullets because to you, through pictures, the wounds look the same when shot into jello (instead of learning what actual calibrated ballistics gel is and how it differs from clear gel). You say want to learn, but rather than learn direct from the source(s) where you can ask questions and get clarification you sling insults and want them to write a book.

Why would you make a kid use that 6mm when you could just as easily, if not more easy, pick it up and go try it for yourself? What result do you expect to be different with a 6mm-06 on game vs a 6BR? The results are there in the 6UM thread for the reading.

TX has year-round hunting available and it's hunting season for the rest of the animals currently, go do some of it and actually learn instead of passing along outdated and jaded information. Your pride in your ignorance is unbecoming.

This is the end of my replies on this derail. It seems you have a lot of years hunting; nothing on Rokslide diminishes that or takes away from it; but it just might make your hunts better going forward and those that you hunt with. Changing how you interact with others may also increase your enjoyment and knowledge gained here. Good luck this season.

 

[Chris in TN]

I hope every single poster in this thread has a chance to get out in the woods this weekend. Breathe some fresh air, maybe pull your boots off around camp and touch some grass with your bare feet, and let all this caliber stuff go.

 

[TaperPin]

I am not sure who you are referring to trolling in the thread earlier, as the interaction began with you posting a shot up the ass of a deer as a reason to shoot a larger caliber. When asked for clarification on how many times you had done that, and the results of such, you immediately deflected into ignoring and insulting rather than offering your evidence of X number of kills over Y number of years, bullets from A to E, MV and impact of XXXX & XXXX, etc... Which actually could have moved the thread forward instead of turning it into another one of your trainwrecks.

You say you're open to learning then admit you haven't used any of the smaller calibers with high BC, heavy for caliber bullets because to you, through pictures, the wounds look the same when shot into jello (instead of learning what actual calibrated ballistics gel is and how it differs from clear gel). You say want to learn, but rather than learn direct from the source(s) where you can ask questions and get clarification you sling insults and want them to write a book.

Why would you make a kid use that 6mm when you could just as easily, if not more easy, pick it up and go try it for yourself? What result do you expect to be different with a 6mm-06 on game vs a 6BR? The results are there in the 6UM thread for the reading.

TX has year-round hunting available and it's hunting season for the rest of the animals currently, go do some of it and actually learn instead of passing along outdated and jaded information. Your pride in your ignorance is unbecoming.

This is the end of my replies on this derail. It seems you have a lot of years hunting; nothing on Rokslide diminishes that or takes away from it; but it just might make your hunts better going forward and those that you hunt with. Changing how you interact with others may also increase your enjoyment and knowledge gained here. Good luck this season.

Are you drunk?

 

[minas stiris]

I have had several Hornets and one K-Hornet. Great little round for what it does.
But they always seem to move on because it is so easy to step up a little and have a lot more.
Huh?
The Hornet is always so borderline obscure the brass can be hard to source. Basically, you are restricted to 45 grain bullets and probably less than 150 yards.
By simply stepping up to 223 you get brass basically for free and can use bullets up to 75 grain plus effective range moves way out there.
But I never get rid of my hornet brass and dies because I never know when I will be lured into another one.