Silpoly for shelters

[Kevin_t]

Dan we can agree to disagree.

We have made several tester shelters, and it was the preference of not one person who tested them.

The strength part on a larger shelter is real , especially if you are out for a few days and beyond walking out.

In essence, the argument for seems to be, that perhaps it doesn't loose strength over time , but that is literally like saying the body of a run of the mill accountant (stereo type) is preferred over an elite athlete because they don't loose their fitness as much if they stop working out. I think very few people would prefer that.

Now, I do think that it (SilPoly ) makes a decent shelter .. However, we cover our tents , for customers, on so many things we could probably say we don't cover due to beyond normal use bla bla ... bla ... but we don't do that. We just cover them or repair etc for a minimal cost.

 

[Mike Islander]

I'm a bit late to this thread, but here's a few quick comments:

"If reputable manufacturers can save cost AND add performance, then they certainly will and silnylon will be obsolete."
Silpoly doesn't save cost, but it does add performance. Tons of companies are switching like Black Diamond, Nemo, MEC, SMD etc. Even ones that were originally against it like Tarptent are now switching.

"I personally won't be convinced silpoly is superior until reputable manufacturers start to use it, having owned shelters in both materials myself."
I'm not sure what it would take to convince you, but tons of reputable companies are switching, with Black Diamond and Tarptent being two of the biggest names recently.

Dan, why did you use nylon for the floor of the DCF Pro 2? That literally kept me from buying it. I already have the original X-Mid 2, which is a fantastic Silpoly tent. .

 

[Kevin_t]

Dan, why did you use nylon for the floor of the DCF Pro 2? That literally kept me from buying it. I already have the original X-Mid 2, which is a fantastic Silpoly tent. .

Dan and I don't agree on some things, BUT , a nylon floor is better IMO than a DCF floor. The weight benefit is very small for DCF as a floor, it packs larger, and is WAY more expensive

 

[Mike Islander]

Dan and I don't agree on some things, BUT , a nylon floor is better IMO than a DCF floor. The weight benefit is very small for DCF as a floor, it packs larger, and is WAY more expensive

Why not silpoly, as that part of the tent will essentially always be wet in the mornings in my area. I can wipe it off, but nylon absorbs water, which equals weight. Just curious.

 

[j33]

Summary:

Most brands and very technical folks are moving to SilPoly due to the recent advances in SilPoly technology. Some brands that did testing with old SilPoly are remaining with SilNylon.

Rokslide had a great podcast on it with Argali, highly recommend searching and finding it. The fact that Argali's tents are SilPoly is the primary reason I ordered one after camping with some SilNylon tipis. People purchase DCF tents to avoid sag and soaking water, which SilPoly solves and is an economic option to DCF. My 2 cents....

 

[dandurston]

Dan we can agree to disagree.

We have made several tester shelters, and it was the preference of not one person who tested them.

The strength part on a larger shelter is real , especially if you are out for a few days and beyond walking out.

In essence, the argument for seems to be, that perhaps it doesn't loose strength over time , but that is literally like saying the body of a run of the mill accountant (stereo type) is preferred over an elite athlete because they don't loose their fitness as much if they stop working out. I think very few people would prefer that.

I wonder if you tested a silpoly that wasn't very good, and then are generalizing about silpoly from that. With a good silpoly, there isn't a big strength difference (nothing like accountant vs elite athlete). You can get silpoly that is 90% as strong as the same weight of nylon, where since nylon loses 10% strength when wet the poly can be just as strong in the field on day #1, and then the nylon further weakens over time from greater UV degradation.

In actual real world conditions, a good poly can be the stronger fabric which is partly why so many companies are switching. For example, Black Diamond has switched many of their tents including hardcore 4-season tents to polyester. As another example, Tarptent was a hold out and said negative things about silpoly, but now have acknowledged that silpoly can be high performance and recently announced their first tent with it.

As an example of a good polyester, check out this 30D one. I think you'll find it tests very similar to your 30D sil/sil nylon, while eliminating sag.

extremtextil

Ripstop polyester tent fabric with silicone coating on both sides, also known as silpoly. Ideal for tarps, as tent fabric and other purposes where a waterproof, lightweight fabric is preferred that does not stretch or stretches very little in wet conditions.

www.extremtextil.de

 

[dandurston]

Dan, why did you use nylon for the floor of the DCF Pro 2? That literally kept me from buying it. I already have the original X-Mid 2, which is a fantastic Silpoly tent. .

That was a complicated decision that was affected by a bunch of factors:
1) The #1 thing I like about poly is that it doesn't expand/sag, which is a huge problem for trekking pole shelters because the fabric is part of the structure so if the fabric sags it becomes structurally unsound. However, in a floor application sag doesn't matter nearly as much.

2) Another advantage of poly is it's superior UV resistance, but again this applies far more to a canopy because the canopy sees a lot of UV exposure while a floor sees very little.

3) The main advantage for using poly in a floor application is faster dry/less water weight gain because it is hydrophobic. That is a real advantage, but also my experience is that water weight gain occurs less with a floor because (1) there is a lot less floor fabric than canopy fabric, and (2) the floor is not exposed to direct rain like the canopy. Of course there are saturated or flooded campsites, but usually those are avoided and often the ground is absorbent enough that the ground actually dries under your tent over time.

Because of #1 and #2, I am quite against using nylon for a trekking pole tent canopy but I am open to it for a floor because the advantages of poly are much less of a factor. I still lean poly, but they are on more similar footing.

For the X-Mid Pro, it is our flagship superlight tent so I wanted to use a floor material that was step lighter than what we use in the regular tents to make the weight competitive with tents like the Duplex, while still keeping it reasonably durable. I think the right balance there is a 15D fabric around 1oz/yd instead of a 20D fabric around 1.2oz because there's about 5 sq yds of floor fabric so that's a difference of 1oz on the tent which is substantial when you're shaving grams. However, you can't really get poly lighter than 20D, so the only options were nylons. There are a couple 15D polys in existence but none of them I could find were good ones. I'd be open to using a 15D poly if I could find a good one, but so far I haven't been able. I did find a 15D nylon that hit that 1oz/yd mark while offering really good durability specs for its weight (very similar to our 1.2oz 20D poly) so I went with that option.

I expect you are concerned with water weight gain because nylon can gain 100% of it's weight in prolonged wet conditions. However, that would be quite rare for a floor to gain that much and typically any water weight gain is probably less than the 1oz in material savings, so much of the time you are camping on dry sites where the tents is lighter and then even wet nights it's usually no heavier, so it is on average lighter than a 20D poly floor which is why I think it's a better pick for this particular tent.

Also there is still the opportunity to isolate it from water weight gain via a groundsheet, which many people are using anyways. A polycro groundsheets can stop water weight gain for an ounce or two, and also we will be offering a 20D groundsheet for the X-Mid Pro that will be poly (same material as our regular tent floors), so you can add a poly floor to it with this groundsheet.

 

[Mike Islander]

That was a complicated decision that was affected by a bunch of factors:
1) The #1 thing I like about poly is that it doesn't expand/sag, which is a huge problem for trekking pole shelters because the fabric is part of the structure so if the fabric sags it becomes structurally unsound. However, in a floor application sag doesn't matter nearly as much.

2) Another advantage of poly is it's superior UV resistance, but again this applies far more to a canopy because the canopy sees a lot of UV exposure while a floor sees very little.

3) The main advantage for using poly in a floor application is faster dry/less water weight gain because it is hydrophobic. That is a real advantage, but also my experience is that water weight gain occurs less with a floor because (1) there is a lot less floor fabric than canopy fabric, and (2) the floor is not exposed to direct rain like the canopy. Of course there are saturated or flooded campsites, but usually those are avoided and often the ground is absorbent enough that the ground actually dries under your tent over time.

Because of #1 and #2, I am quite against using nylon for a trekking pole tent canopy but I am open to it for a floor because the advantages of poly are much less of a factor. I still lean poly, but they are on more similar footing.

For the X-Mid Pro, it is our flagship superlight tent so I wanted to use a floor material that was step lighter than what we use in the regular tents to make the weight competitive with tents like the Duplex, while still keeping it reasonably durable. I think the right balance there is a 15D fabric around 1oz/yd instead of a 20D fabric around 1.2oz because there's about 5 sq yds of floor fabric so that's a difference of 1oz on the tent which is substantial when you're shaving grams. However, you can't really get poly lighter than 20D, so the only options were nylons. There are a couple 15D polys in existence but none of them I could find were good ones. I'd be open to using a 15D poly if I could find a good one, but so far I haven't been able. I did find a 15D nylon that hit that 1oz/yd mark while offering really good durability specs for its weight (very similar to our 1.2oz 20D poly) so I went with that option.

I expect you are concerned with water weight gain because nylon can gain 100% of it's weight in prolonged wet conditions. However, that would be quite rare for a floor to gain that much and typically any water weight gain is probably less than the 1oz in material savings, so much of the time you are camping on dry sites where the tents is lighter and then even wet nights it's usually no heavier, so it is on average lighter than a 20D poly floor which is why I think it's a better pick for this particular tent.

Also there is still the opportunity to isolate it from water weight gain via a groundsheet, which many people are using anyways. A polycro groundsheets can stop water weight gain for an ounce or two, and also we will be offering a 20D groundsheet for the X-Mid Pro that will be poly (same material as our regular tent floors), so you can add a poly floor to it with this groundsheet.

Dan, that absolutely answered my question! I do usually use a piece of polycro, since our ground is moisture-saturated where I camp. Many thanks.

 

[Kevin_t]

I wonder if you tested a silpoly that wasn't very good, and then are generalizing about silpoly from that. With a good silpoly, there isn't a big strength difference (nothing like accountant vs elite athlete). You can get silpoly that is 90% as strong as the same weight of nylon, where since nylon loses 10% strength when wet the poly can be just as strong in the field on day #1, and then the nylon further weakens over time from greater UV degradation.

In actual real world conditions, a good poly can be the stronger fabric which is partly why so many companies are switching. For example, Black Diamond has switched many of their tents including hardcore 4-season tents to polyester. As another example, Tarptent was a hold out and said negative things about silpoly, but now have acknowledged that silpoly can be high performance and recently announced their first tent with it.

As an example of a good polyester, check out this 30D one. I think you'll find it tests very similar to your 30D sil/sil nylon, while eliminating sag.

extremtextil

Ripstop polyester tent fabric with silicone coating on both sides, also known as silpoly. Ideal for tarps, as tent fabric and other purposes where a waterproof, lightweight fabric is preferred that does not stretch or stretches very little in wet conditions.

www.extremtextil.de

Well, interesting , they have Cordura Sil listed as "Low Stretch" as well. We have been always using Cordura branded. Perhaps that combined with a couple other elements have made stretch less of an issue.

I can always just pull your shelter out and test it as well , or grab some from extreme. What I used was from , Ripstop by the Roll. BTW, even on extreme textile , the Cordura based is still pricier.

However, all that will have to wait a bit , I am responding in my down time between two business trips .. my schedule will free up and be more normal the last half of May

 

[dandurston]

The RSBTR silpoly is quite poor for strength and bias stretch. I can see you being unimpressed with that, but I wouldn't generalize to all silpoly from that. For example, Tarptent has historically said they were sticking with nylon because they found silpoly to have a lot of bias stretch, but now this year they are switching to 20D silpoly while saying they've finally been able to find a good one that performs really well in strength and bias stretch. They are out there.

 

[coloradoan]

Really appreciating this conversation. I respect that SO is hesitant to move on from the known strength of silnylon.

Dan, I've read your posts on a few forums and now here - enlightening as always. Now you just need to get some of your shelters in stock!

 

[dandurston]

Thanks...we are working hard on improved supply but it has been difficult to increase production during covid. We have another batch on sale in 4 weeks. It'll sell out quickly but finally this fall we have much better production coming online for all models.

 

[Mike Islander]

As a very satisfied owner of both Seek Outside (Redcliff) and Durston (X-Mid 2), I appreciate the willingness of both vendors to openly discuss this on the forum. Obviously silnylon is excellent fabric that has worked for many of us for many years. If I were to buy a Cimarron tomorrow, the fact that it is silnylon wouldn't concern me in the least. It is excellent fabric that works very well. Newer silpoly (or other) fabrics may completely change the game in future, but only time will tell.