Silnylon vs silpoly

[Dos Perros]

The data that we have found and that I've written about previously is that if you get a very high quality poly and nylon with the same denier and coating, the differences are negligiable in terms of strength.

What are the differences when it comes to raw material price?

 

[feanor]

The ripping in wind was interesting.

I made a tipi [12.5' die, 7.5' tall] from the Sil poly about 8-10 years ago. I used the stronger 1.6oz silpoly from RSBTR knowing I was going to use it in harsh environments and wanted more strength. And I did a rolled seam on panels and perimeter, essentially doubled -that is stronger than heck which makes a difference. I also did more panels- 10 for less large areas of fabric. I can tighten my tipi to where it bends the pole.

I have had my Tipi in 60mph plus winds in Alaska [one pilot told us 90mph gusts and I believe him] multiple times and it was solid, those tipis shed the wind better than any other shelter I've seen. Tipi tip, to shed the wind best, they have to be tight.

The seek shelter I have is the Eolus and it only has a perimeter seam folded once [which is not very strong at all] along with reinforcement patches.

FWIW, I have had Shelters made from various Silnylon. That UL 15D stuff is garbage. My dog stepped on my old Golite tipi and put a 30" rip in it. A buddies 20D shelter was just touched by a small tree limb and ripped.

I think that 30D they use is a great fabric for what we do. [Or the 30d Mountain fabric from RSBTR]

Hey, amateur sewing guy here and in no way do I claim to know more than the excellent folks at Seek....I think it's admirable they are testing their gear but that tearing needs to be analyzed. My guess, the pyramid design catches wind.

Do you have any photos of the tent you made with more panels?

 

[Brad@Argali]

What are the differences when it comes to raw material price?

That's an impossible question to answer for every silnylon and silpoly fabric out there. You can get cheap fabric made out of nylon or poly, and you can get expensive made out of either material. It's no different than any other man-made material. How it is made and who makes it matters, a lot and unless you have the exact same weave, tightness of fibers, ripstop grid, coating process, etc. you can't compare the two fabrics that easily. The only time you can say definitively that one fabric is more expensive than either poly or nylon is with Dyneema or any other composite fabric. Anyone who tells you anything different is making it up to justify their own decision. I can only comment on our fabric and what I know about it. The 30D sil/pu nylon we use for our floors is about half the cost of the sil/sil poly we use for our tents, but that isn't because it is cheap. PU coatings tend to cost less to make, and heavier fabrics are usually less expensive than ligthweight fabrics (that is a generalization, not a rule).

 

[Dos Perros]

Based on Brad's replies, I can only conclude this material debate is an intentional obfuscation. Each manufacturer is going to say theirs is better but will never objectively define why.

Makes me want to come out with a tent made of cotton candy. Ya you think that wouldn't work, but trust me my cotton candy sheds the water and wind better than Brad's polyester and Seek's nylon.

 

[whiskybiker]

I've always encouraged everyone to do their own homework, but beware of any company that makes a marketing video with a conclusion that ends with a conslusion that their product is better. That's not scientific or objective, it's self serving.

Wouldn't this also suggest that your own reply to it is self serving? You are going to dispute anything that shines a bad light on your product regardless. I have no skin in the game on poly vs nylon. But, every company is going to say their product is better-correct?

So, really real world data is what should be put out there, not opinions. Data from the lab or the product specs only tell half the story.

I'd like to see more companies showing us why their products are better, not just telling us to listen to them or their paid influencers.

 

[TaperPin]

Polyester blends are more UV resistant and nylon blends are stronger if everything else is equal. That’s true with thread or fabric from the thickest to the thinnest - things like outdoor furniture covers would never be made out of nylon and outdoor vinyl would never be stitched with nylon. Things like work belts and construction tool bags are outside a lot and seem to be often made of nylon and they hold up well for 5 to 10 years or more. A lot of leather goods are also sewn with nylon and hold up well. If someone kept their tent pitched a lot, like all summer year after year the polyester version would definitely outlast the nylon. Use a couple times a year probably doesn’t matter and nylon would be tougher.

There’s common sense evidence of the superior strength/weight/bulk properties of nylon in the construction of sky diving canopies and most tents..

 

[bmart2622]

Based on Brad's replies, I can only conclude this material debate is an intentional obfuscation. Each manufacturer is going to say theirs is better but will never objectively define why.

Makes me want to come out with a tent made of cotton candy. Ya you think that wouldn't work, but trust me my cotton candy sheds the water and wind better than Brad's polyester and Seek's nylon.

Based on Brads replies its made my decision clear that I will be ordering a Yukon with the next pre order

 

[Dos Perros]

Based on Brads replies its made my decision clear that I will be ordering a Yukon with the next pre order

My cotton candy will be made in America tho. Does that sway you?

 

[bmart2622]

Nope

 

[Dos Perros]

Hilleberg uses nylon.
MSR uses nylon.

Eureka uses poly.
Kelty uses poly.

I wonder why this is?

 

[Brad@Argali]

Wouldn't this also suggest that your own reply to it is self serving? You are going to dispute anything that shines a bad light on your product regardless. I have no skin in the game on poly vs nylon. But, every company is going to say their product is better-correct?

So, really real world data is what should be put out there, not opinions. Data from the lab or the product specs only tell half the story.

I'd like to see more companies showing us why their products are better, not just telling us to listen to them or their paid influencers.

I've never said ours is "better". It's different and we use it for a reason, which I've articulated based on my and our extensive field testing. You can decide what you like better. If I find a nylon in the future I like better than our current poly fabric, I'd use it in a heartbeat. We're committed to making the best products we can for backcountry hunters, no matter what the material. I'm not wed to poly or nylon, and we use them both for different applications. My philosophy is to let the product speak for itself, and if I find a better material that I think works better for backcountry hunting, I'd use it.

I can say that we do our homework and spend a lot of time testing our products in the field before we decide to sell it. All of us at Argali are backcountry hunters first and foremost, and it's up to you and everyone else to decide what you like and where you want to spend your money.

I've said enough on this so this will be my last response to this topic. If any of you want to discuss further, give me a call. I'd be happy to chat anytime. Shoot me a DM and I'll give you my cell phone.

 

[bmart2622]

Hilleberg uses nylon.
MSR uses nylon.

Eureka uses poly.
Kelty uses poly.

I wonder why this is?

How many Argali shelters have you used?

 

[Dos Perros]

How many Argali shelters have you used?

Zero. I don't buy made in China, for obvious reasons. I have other reasons, but that one is the most salient and least subjective.

 

[bmart2622]

Figured

 

[bmart2622]

So sourced overseas is ok but assembled overseas is a deal breaker?

 

[mntnguide]

When my argali Rincon was torn up by a grizzly, I had to buy an entire new one, tent and liner. It could have been patched by someone who knows what they are doing with fabric, which is not me. . When my Seek Redcliff was torn from a freak windstorm, they not only repaired it entirely, they did it free of charge. There is something to be said about the company that sews their own products and can repair them, vs one that does not. . As stated, I have both shelters, both companies. Pros and cons to both. But in the future I will tend to lean towards a company who can repair issues than one who cannot. Spend enough time in the mountains, stuff happens, things need fixed.

 

[huntingspice]

Let me address a few comments here. First, I love comparison videos like this. We do a lot of testing and they are a great way to test fabrics and tents. It would be easy to watch this video and come away saying silpoly is inferior to silnylon, therefore you should buy silnylon. That's exactly the point SO wants you to come away with. The only conclusion from this video you can come away with that the silpoly they used failed faster than their silnylon. It's unfortuante, but SO has been putting a lot of effort into justifying nylon as a better fabric and telling people silpoly is weak. And yet, us, Durston, Tarp Tent and other reputable tent brands continue to use it because what we know is that you can make strong silpoly fabric if you know how to. You'll never hear me say nylon is a bad fabric, and I've been clear that it is a great fabric, it just has some functionality that I don't care for (sag being primary amongst them, and if you've experienced it you will know what I mean). We let our customers and our products speak for themselves, which they do.

There are many factors that impact fabric strength and there are probably thousands of different silpoly's out there. I can't comment on where they sourced theirs because I have no idea, nor do you. And frankly, it doesn't matter. Suggesting that all silnylon or silpolys are the same is crazy because there are so many out there. Comparing two fabrics that aren't even close to the same strength to start with and then having the weaker fabric tear faster shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. You have to control for all other variables to make a conclusion, and they didn't do that in this video. A 2000mm sil/sil coating is going to be weaker than a 3000mm sil/sil coating, and if I was going to do a head to head test of poly v. nylon I would at least control for that variable, but they didn't.

Also, as I've said many times, every tent fabric is different and the silnylon SO uses and the silpoly we use are not the same as a cheap silpoly or silnylon tent you get at Walmart. Our fabric and our tents are not cheap as was suggested above, and it's unfortunate that other brands are spending their time suggesting that. We use a nano-ripstop silpoly fabric with a 3000mm sil/sil coating on it for most of our tents, and our 8P uses a 30D nano ripstop silpoly fabric. They are great fabrics and I'd put them up against any comparable nylon fabric in a strength test.

The data that we have found and that I've written about previously is that if you get a very high quality poly and nylon with the same denier and coating, the differences are negligiable in terms of strength.

I've always encouraged everyone to do their own homework, but beware of any company that makes a marketing video with a conclusion that ends with a conslusion that their product is better. That's not scientific or objective, it's self serving.

I understand the whole apples to apples thing. But isn't the main debate here between companies that use 20D silpoly vs 30D silnylon? From what I have seen, those are the two prominent fabrics..So, if you are saying that they need to be the same denier in order to have similar strengths, why wouldn't you be using 30D?

https://www.tarptent.com/buyers-guide/ Tarp tent is coming to the same conclusion based off this page.

 

[Dos Perros]

So sourced overseas is ok but assembled overseas is a deal breaker?

Hmmm. I am a complex being and try to be thoughtful and make logical decisions that adhere to my values and needs and constraints. But, this is my general purchasing strategy (this applies in all aspects of my life, not just hunting):

1) Determine do I need something, or just want something?
2) If I need something, AND the only place I can buy that thing is from China, then I'll buy it.
3) If I want something, AND the only place I can buy that thing is from China, I won't buy it. I'll just do without.

There is also a hierarchy to country of origin. I'll prioritize purchases from American manufacturers, then close allies like Canada, the UK, then others. I hold the Scandic manufacturers in high regard for design and quality. And I would put places like Vietnam or Taiwan ahead of a place like China. China is dead last. I won't ever buy something I want from China.

Lastly, I would say I am not perfect.

 

[owenseek24]

Based on Brad's replies, I can only conclude this material debate is an intentional obfuscation. Each manufacturer is going to say theirs is better but will never objectively define why.

Makes me want to come out with a tent made of cotton candy. Ya you think that wouldn't work, but trust me my cotton candy sheds the water and wind better than Brad's polyester and Seek's nylon.

I will 100% buy the cotton candy tent, please let me know when this comes out.

My intention with this test was to be as neutral as possible in the testing. We genuinely are curious about new fabrics all the time, heck we probably have 20-30 rolls of different fabric we've tested and made into shelters. As we are always looking for the next big thing in fabric. This is a video to show how we test our gear and products for strength, specifically pro longed wind/snow/UV exposure. We have tons of different poly's that I am still testing right now in 30 day increments. As well as nylon's in various deniers from 10-30D. We strive to build a very long lasting product with the ability to withstand any kind of backcountry hunt you could throw at it. Material and build quality matter when the weather gets crappy. We sourced the poly's used in this video from very reputable manufacturers and changed our sewing process in the second round of tents to be less susceptible to ripping for the poly shelters. If anyone wants to test our 30D sil fabric we would be happy to send a free sample to you, just cover shipping. Just shoot us a call and we will get an order in for ya!

 

[Beendare]

Do you have any photos of the tent you made with more panels?

1.6 oz Silpoly, Sagging a little here before its heated up.