Shrek's 6.5 saum build

[Shrek]

This is as good as it got. 1.07 moa . I've got 26 loaded up and I'm on my way. I think runout is throwing the group size. When I get back I'll figure it out.

 

[msalm]

One MOA will do the job for aways, but if it were me I'd look at Bergers, Lapua Scenars, or even Accubonds when you get back to rule out any rifle issues befor continuing with the matrix bullets. Try a proven accurate bullet and ensure it's not a bedding issue or even a scope issue. Good luck on your hunt!

 

[aron]

I agree, dont get stuck on a particular bullet when there's so many good ones out there. Im unfamiliar with the matrix bullets and how finicky they are with seating depth. I've found the Lapua scenars and Barnes lrx to be generous with the bergers being fussy.

 

[Shrek]

Thanks guys . The vlds are very finicky for seating depth and runout and I'm thinking the excessive runout is the culprit. I don't know where I went wrong but half of everything I loaded is running. 0025 to .003 which is pretty bad. I've got a few that are at or under .001 which is what I'll hunt with. The target pictured last is shot with pulled bullets and the cases they were pulled from so there might be something there also. Different bullets and powders will be tried for sure. The thing that was heartening was that the 57.1 grain load had two touching also.

 

[KMD]

Vertical of that last group looks OK. The horizontal is lowsy.
Sure you ain't gettin' "trigger slappy"?
Seen that happen plenty. Reloaders dreaming of every excuse under the Sun, 'cept for addressing potential the loose nut behind the trigger.

Not being accusatory, trying to help ya get to the bottom your dilemma. And I'll tell ya straight out: when I see horizontal stringing in my groups and the wind is <gale-force, the first thing I blame is...ME.

 

[Shrek]

KMD , it could be my shooting but I really think there is more to it. I shot two for velocity today and was disappointed again. Two shots only but the average was only 2975 with the 142 gr bullet over 57.7gr H1000. I get very slight pressure at 58gr and obvious pressure at 58.5 gr so I can't really push it at all. I'm not really happy with the Norma brass , thick and soft. I'll get out and double check how the zero is Friday morning as I hike in. Broz thinks my runout problem is in the sizing and he's probably right. Plenty of things to work on when I get back.

 

[Shrek]

I got out last night and killed a few things with the 6.5 rsaum. A doe and two small pigs about 25lbs a piece. The more I think about the performance the more disappointed I am . I'm hoping that I can get some better brass and it cures the low velocity. As it is now it will not be long before the 6.5 rsaum barrel goes away along with all the supplies. A rsaum with a 25.75" barrel should be well above the 2975fps I'm getting with 142gr bullets. I read threads where guys are using 61 gr of h1000 and getting 10 loadings and I can't put 58grs in and the primer pockets are blown in three loadings. My feelings about norma brass at this point is that it's overpriced garbage.

 

[Justin Crossley]

6.5-06 AI is where it's at man.

 

[Shrek]

6.5-06 AI is where it's at man.

Maybe . I don't have an action to build one on right now or the cash but if some retumbo or different brass doesn't offer some relief this action will be something else asap. Probably a 6.5 wsm. 270 wsm Winchester brass thats cheap and tough and enough capacity to get it done. In fact , I bet I can clean up this chamber with it and only eat the dies and rechamber costs. I need to look at the bullet and brass dimensions and see if it is what I want.

 

[Shrek]

I think I may have found my problem with pressure and velocity. I have been measuring my fired brass and the neck od is .298 od and .2635 id when I use my calipers but the neck thickness measures .016 with my ball micrometer. A bullet will not slide into the neck of a fired case. By my calipers I have .0175 neck wall thickness which isn't enough clearance. I set my neck turner up using the ball micrometer so I'm thinking I need to turn my necks down another. 0015 to give .002 clearance. I think it explains why I'm getting pressure and low velocity. Any of the pro's think I'm on to my problem ?

 

[Shrek]

But when I measure loaded rounds I get .296+ a BCH so I'm back to where I started. Thick and soft brass.

 

[Justin Crossley]

I wouldn't give up on it yet. I'm sure you'll figure out what's going on with the slow velocity.

 

[KMD]

Not sure what's going on with your rifle, Shrek?

You can't reliable measure neck wall thickness with calipers, so don't even bother comparing that to what you measure with a ball mic designed for the task.

Also, IIRC, you didn't use the .2962"neck 6.5 GAP 4s reamer that many others (including myself) have been shooting & raving about. And many of the GAP 4s shooters are runnin' Bartlein barrels with 8.5 or 8.7 twists (myself included). Given those differences from your chamber & barrel, you really can't expect to have the same results...

What were the dimensions of your reamer?
Didn't you have it throated extra long for those Matrix bullets?


If it was a "no turn" neck, then you only needed to turn the smallest amount of brass off the necks...just enough to insure a true diameter around the entire circumference. Basicallly, you're only turning necks to 'clean up the mess' made during the necking down process.

Turning neck thinner than that WILL NOT HELP in a "no turn" chamber. Excessive neck turning will only serve to over work your necks during firing & subsequent resizing. The thinner the neck, the more room they have to expand in the chamber, upon firing. Then, you have to size them down with a smaller bushing to net the desired neck tension to grab a bullet.

In short, turn necks only enough to safely fit a spec'ed chamber. Going any thinner than what's required for safe operation becomes counterproductive!

 

[Shrek]

It's a .298 no turn neck and the throat is longer for the heavier bullets. With the 142gr bullets I'm well out of the case and should have more capacity than the 6.5 4S . I'm thinking it's a particularly thick and soft batch of brass at this point. I have room to spare for powder with H1000 so I have to believe it's the softness of the brass. I'm hoping that some Retumbo will get them up to speed without pressure problems. I'm not too worried about over working the necks at this point as I can anneal every loading if needed and the primer pockets aren't holding up more than three firings at this pressure. Someone needs to make a tool to reform primer pockets.

 

[Cross]

I do not have the reloading experience that you and others have on this forum, but at the risk of sounding foolish I will though out a suggestion.

It seems to me that you are reaching max pressure or close too it with room to spare in the cartridge case. Taking a step back and not talking of the cartridge neck size and dimension, could the pressure problem be with the bullet barrel combo being too tight. I say that because I remember reading about the Creedmoor when it first came out on the market there were reports that it was blowing out primers with factory ammo. Hornaday was able to inspect a few of the guns that were having issues and found that the barrel was cut just ever so slightly tighter than what the specs should have been creating a higher pressure situation.
I know that you have a custom cut barrel, is there a reasonable way for you to measure what the barrel is cut to, and the diameter of the matrix bullets and see if they both fall into the correct specifications?

 

[KMD]

What brass are you running that is so terrible, that it won't allow your rifle to shoot a decent group?

I've got 5x fired on a batch of 50pc. Norma brass reserved for 130 HVLDs. Trim to min. length & anneal after 3x fired, they are shooting incredibly well.

As for the 130 HVLDs, I found a load quickly, using standard procedure. Seat bullet into the lands, ladder test w/ chrono to find pressure & velocity performance. Things looked promising, so did some group testing and picked the one with the least vertical at distance. This stuff is only as hard as you wanna make it...

A bullet/powder is either gonna shoot, or it ain't. By the time you ladder test, you will have a real good indication of accuracy potential, and hard data for velocity. If either one is lacking, don't make excuses! Excuses aren't going to magically make a load start shooting, so MOVE ALONG and find something your rifle likes...

The 6.5 SAUM is not so inherently finicky that a good load can't be found for it. Assuming you've got a soundly built rifle there, IMHO, you just haven't found a good load yet. Mainly because you seem so dead set on trying to make a (Matrix) bullet shoot, that just don't wanna shoot. It happens, don't be upset. Just MOVE ALONG and find happiness somewhere else...

Seems like you had your heart set on using those Matrix bullets, and throated your chamber specifically for them. But, as evidenced by your frustration in this thread, they just ain't wanting to shoot.

So, instead of blaming "brass softness", "powder lot" or any other of the excuses you've speculated about in this thread, MOVE ALONG and try a different bullet and/or powder combo. Berger, JLK, Amax, Nosler, Scenar...pick a bullet and start over.

To be blunt, I think that long throat/Matrix bullet tangent you went off on, is coming back to bite you in the azz. GAP spec'ed their 6.5 SAUM 4s reamer based on LOTS of field data & testing with different bullet styles. Subsequent to the release of their version of the 6.5SAUM, there's been many happy shooters who've either had GAP build a rifle, or who've used the GAP 4s reamer design to build their own rifle (like me).

Reading back through this thread reminds me of someone trying to pound a square peg, into a round hole. Don't blame the peg for not fitting, find the one that fits & use it!

 

[Shrek]

First , GAP throated their reamer to work within the limits of a Remington magazine and to work well with a variety of 130 to 140 grain bullets. I throated mine to utilize the 3.05" Winchester wsm magazine. The rifle may not want to shoot the long and heavy Matrix bullets but I've hardly scratched the surface with powder , charge , and seating combinations. I'm trying to work with the heavier bullets because I want the mass for elk hunting not for the BC's. If I'm limited to 140gr and below I'll end up building another 7mm to take elk hunting which I'm planning on doing anyway. 140 6.5's will kill elk all day long and twice on Sunday but psychologically I feel more confident with 150gr plus bullets moving along at 3000fps at the muzzle. If I can make this rifle shoot the 150's at 3000fps then I'll have two rifles I have total confidence in by next season. With 140's I'll always feel the shot has to be perfect and I will turn down opportunities that I would otherwise take. Reality is that it's all in my head but reality is that what's in my head controls me just like it does everyone else.

 

[Shrek]

Cross , I've measured the bullets to the best of my ability and they are dead on .264 as far as I can tell. The barrel I don't really have a way to accurately measure.

 

[JustOneMoreShot]

Shrek,
I'm looking for Retumbo as well and have been for a while. I found it once online but I think there was a restriction of one container per day per order. I did not call and find out if they would hold the shipping for several days and put all of the one pounders in the same box. In the end they were all gone after two days so I got zero. I will wait until another vendor shows them in stock. I have a few rifles that really like the powder.

 

[Shrek]

JOMS , I have enough in the bottom of a bottle to load a couple of rounds so when I get back from Turkey day at mama's I'll throw the three or four I can together and see if it will get me to where I want to be. Lack of components is sooooooo old !