Show Off Your Tikka T3/T3X Groups

[ElPollo]

No, a 100 shot group won’t be the same size as a 3 shot “group”. However- every one of your 3 shots groups will be inside the 100 round group….

I don’t disagree with what you are saying. For a properly stress relieved barrel and based on statistical theory and with all other things constant, a 10 shot group should be inside of a 100 shot group. But reality and statistics differ in that the covariates are rarely constant. As the barrel heats, the cone of fire should expand. If all other things are equal and the barrel is perfectly stress relieved, the centroid of twenty 5-shot groups should be the same as one 100 shot group.

I think you rightly advocate, albeit in an amusing and shit-stirring sort of way given your chosen moniker, that hunters should try to better understand how they and their guns will really perform under pressure through practice and analysis. I think we as hunters get a bit too hung up on barrel heat because it’s not realistic in most hunting situations. That is also true. What I think we often miss is that bad form and environmental factors like wind calls both have a bigger effect on shooting repeatability than barrel heat. Both of those will decrease through the regular application of barrel heat with regular practice. And if we track and pool smaller shot groups for analysis, e.g. what is the center and extent of ten 3-shot groups in relation to the point of aim, the result is going to be similar to shooting longer 30-shot strings. If we ignore the variability between smaller shot strings, we are overestimating our skills and failing to learn critical lessons that could make us better.

All that said, when I get a ragged one-hole three shot group, I’m prone to share it with my friends and puff out my chest a bit without mentioning where it is in space related to previous or subsequent groups. And sometimes I just like to shoot for fun and not sweat the details of analyzing anything beyond where those rounds hit right now.

And finally thanks for the shit stirring. I always get a chuckle out of it and often learn something.

 

[yycyak]

People don't like 10 round groups, because 10 rounds easily shows how crappy a shooter you actually are. It also shows the limitations of a rifle. I've experienced the suckiness of this realization first hand - there's a whole thread I have somewhere testing out @Formidilosus 's stuff. In summary, it's legit, and I wish I'd read this material about 10 years ago. It would have saved me so much time, money, and headache.

Here's my 10 round group from a brand new 30-06. No barrel cooling, just three sets of three (plus 1 extra), all back to back, shot casually prone off a pack. Top two "fliers" (although I don't like that term) were part of the last group. Not sure what I did there, but it was a "me" screw-up for sure.

https://imgur.com/pP2QgCT

Tikkas can shoot.

 

[Formidilosus]

Agreed, my only point was each shot adds heat, barrel mass/surface area are factors on how quickly that heat affects a barrel, am I off base?

Each shot does add heat, and in non stress relieved barrels as they heat they tend to “walk”. In a properly stress relieved barrel, the only thing in a real sense that causes the group to open as the barrel heats is mirage or if the round is left in the chamber for an extended time heating it up. Other than that, the reason four round groups are larger than three, and five larger than four, etc. is because until you establish the true cone- I.e. the true group size, then more rounds fired, the larger the group.

What's your problem? Your talking about shooting 10 shot groups with a light sporter bbl. Grow up, your not as bright as you think you are. These guns shoot outstanding groups for a lightweight production hunting rifle. I've owned 5 Tikka's, and i've shot 1/4" 3 shot groups or better with all of them.

I’m am not sure of what you are trying to say? Please point out where I mentioned ten round groups in this thread. I have only written about the misconception that a barrels getting hot is why groups open up.

Then why is it stressed to let the barrel cool between shots, is that just a misconception? Or is that just for the longevity of the barrel? Or is it common for the barrel of a factory rifle to not be properly stress relieved? And does the cartridge sitting in a heated chamber make any difference in this?

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It is several things and all have their roots in the same reason that barrel cleaning is stressed- part holdover from history and part granddaddy said so. In both cases, one can hardly find someone that has tested the beliefs.

Barrel heat is not causing groups to open up in a properly built rifle. The reality is as simple as three round groups are not statistically relevant, and do not tell you the true grouping size of the gun. Neither does four, or five, or seven. Neither does ten rounds for that matter- the truth is that the more rounds in a group the better the information that is provided. However, there is a practical limit to this- not many people are going to shoot 100 round groups with a rifle; though I believe everyone should at least once, as it gives a very clear perspective of what is actually happening.
The real question is: what is the purpose of grouping at all? It seems to me to be to check mechanical function, to zero, to determine what size target can reliably be hit, and in this case- to compare performance to other rifles. Three round groups do not work to get a true sense for any of those reasons. People get away with it because big game is big and generally shot at ranges that errors, even relatively large ones, don’t cause enough issues for casual users to notice.

Since getting to the 100% group size means you shoot out the barrel, that won’t work. Everyone will have there own comfort level, for me I want a 95’ish% idea where any one round will fall. That’s is generally achieved with a couple of ten round groups. Shooting 10 rounds at a time instead of 20 or 30 reduces two of the potential real errors for most chamberings and guns- mirage and a chambered round heating up.

 

[Formidilosus]

And finally thanks for the shit stirring. I always get a chuckle out of it and often learn something.

It’s not really trying to stir. I would prefer people to be open enough, and think critically enough that someone could say that something is incorrect, explain why, and then people go experiment and educate themselves to determine the validity or lack thereof. However the vast majority are emotionally invested in their believe, or emotionally invested in being “right” and telling them that they are wrong only makes them dig in deeper. For the few that are open, questions seem to work better to at least crack that door.

Logically if I do not know the functional reasons for a believe, how do I know my belief is correct?

 

[mitchellbk]

Form, on leaving a round chambered affecting POI - are we talking minutes or seconds?

 

[TxxAgg]

Tagged. Always learning

 

[HighUintas]

It’s not really trying to stir. I would prefer people to be open enough, and think critically enough that someone could say that something is incorrect, explain why, and then people go experiment and educate themselves to determine the validity or lack thereof. However the vast majority are emotionally invested in their believe, or emotionally invested in being “right” and telling them that they are wrong only makes them dig in deeper. For the few that are open, questions seem to work better to at least crack that door.

Logically if I do not know the functional reasons for a believe, how do I know my belief is correct?

Hang on... Are we talking rifle accuracy or politics?

 

[ElPollo]

It’s not really trying to stir. I would prefer people to be open enough, and think critically enough that someone could say that something is incorrect, explain why, and then people go experiment and educate themselves to determine the validity or lack thereof. However the vast majority are emotionally invested in their believe, or emotionally invested in being “right” and telling them that they are wrong only makes them dig in deeper. For the few that are open, questions seem to work better to at least crack that door.

Logically if I do not know the functional reasons for a believe, how do I know my belief is correct?

No offense intended on the shit-stirring comment. I grew up on a farm and have been referred to as a manure spreader for my sarcastic ways.

 

[Formidilosus]

Form, on leaving a round chambered affecting POI - are we talking minutes or seconds?

Could be both depending on how hot.

 

[OdinIII]

Could be both depending on how hot.

And the powder/load?

 

[Woodrow F Call]

Hang on... Are we talking rifle accuracy or politics?

Heh heh heh heh.

 

[Formidilosus]

And the powder/load?

Yes. Temperature stable powders handle it better.

 

[CHSD]

5 shot group with a Tikka 30-06, shooting Barnes 168 grain.

 

[ETtikka]

I don’t disagree with what you are saying. For a properly stress relieved barrel and based on statistical theory and with all other things constant, a 10 shot group should be inside of a 100 shot group. But reality and statistics differ in that the covariates are rarely constant. As the barrel heats, the cone of fire should expand. If all other things are equal and the barrel is perfectly stress relieved, the centroid of twenty 5-shot groups should be the same as one 100 shot group.

I think you rightly advocate, albeit in an amusing and shit-stirring sort of way given your chosen moniker, that hunters should try to better understand how they and their guns will really perform under pressure through practice and analysis. I think we as hunters get a bit too hung up on barrel heat because it’s not realistic in most hunting situations. That is also true. What I think we often miss is that bad form and environmental factors like wind calls both have a bigger effect on shooting repeatability than barrel heat. Both of those will decrease through the regular application of barrel heat with regular practice. And if we track and pool smaller shot groups for analysis, e.g. what is the center and extent of ten 3-shot groups in relation to the point of aim, the result is going to be similar to shooting longer 30-shot strings. If we ignore the variability between smaller shot strings, we are overestimating our skills and failing to learn critical lessons that could make us better.

All that said, when I get a ragged one-hole three shot group, I’m prone to share it with my friends and puff out my chest a bit without mentioning where it is in space related to previous or subsequent groups. And sometimes I just like to shoot for fun and not sweat the details of analyzing anything beyond where those rounds hit right now.

And finally thanks for the shit stirring. I always get a chuckle out of it and often learn something.

Agreed that a stress relieved barrel sounds great. But to theoretically imply that the metal reacts to heat with 100% uniformity is not accurate. for most hunting situations, seems like small group sizes and distance to point of aim are more critical than large group sizes, but tons of value in evaluating the shooter and rifle with the larger groups, no question.

 

[durangobrad]

View attachment 323013

5 shot group with a Tikka 30-06, shooting Barnes 168 grain.

You reloading? I can't bare to pay the "new" prices.

I've picked up everything I need to start reloading as close to the factory load as possible.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

 

[Formidilosus]

Agreed that a stress relieved barrel sounds great. But to theoretically imply that the metal reacts to heat with 100% uniformity is not accurate. for most hunting situations, seems like small group sizes and distance to point of aim are more critical than large group sizes, but tons of value in evaluating the shooter and rifle with the larger groups, no question.

What are the actual benefits of 3 to 5 round groups over groups with more shots in them?

 

[CHSD]

You reloading? I can't bare to pay the "new" prices.

I've picked up everything I need to start reloading as close to the factory load as possible.

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Nope.

I did the same as you though. Bought stuff to reload as prices are insane. I've got one box left to get me through this fall and then I will be trying to work a load up.

 

[AkRyan]

It does not.


You stated-


And I am asking why, and how? If your statement is correct, than you should be able to explain how the barrel “reacts” differently between rounds three and four, or between rounds 3 and ten, and what that means to group

So each rifle has a "cone" and the way to find that cone is to shoot your rifle till the barrel is hot. If the first 3 shots are 1moa and the others aren't doesn't that mean the heat had effect? Do prs shooters just shoot till they are out of ammo or do they let the rifle cool at all?

 

[AkRyan]

Sometimes it pays to know the players. Yet it was not exactly a set-up unless you consider you played into setting yourself up. There are all different kinds of knowledge level people on this this forum, and an extreme depth of knowledge on this forum on pretty much any subject matter (Rokslide is such an incredible forum). You literally could ask pretty much any question here and get some seriously professional opinions.

I know I am late, but welcome to Rokslide!!!!!!

Wrong he was baited into it by someone who felt the need to prove his intelligence. He could have simply replied with the answer to his own question and it would have saved all of us from having to read the back and forth high-school debate. Everyone is out here to prove a point that there gun knowledge dick is bigger than all others instead of helping.

 

[TxxAgg]

Man, you really are Hostile.