I bought a CVA Accura V2 last year, but now I'm debating on whether or not I should sell it and buy a Remington 700. The biggest thing that is pushing me to do it, is the ability of the Remington to shoot farther distance. Do any of you have Accura V2's? If so, how far are you shooting them with accuracy? What about you that have Remington's? How far are you shooting them with accuracy?
Should I sell my CVA Accura V2 to buy 700 Remington ultimate muzzleloader?
- Thread starter snik
- Start date
ENCORE
WKR
I'm not a CVA fan but, I helped a couple friends set theirs up and shot one of them. It shot much better than I expected, yet I'm just not a CVA fan. Not saying there's something wrong with them, just that I don't care for the overall rifle. They are not LONG RANGE rifles IMO.
As for the Remington, I'd suggest you determine how much you actually plan on shooting first, then determine if it may be worth the 'extra' attention to numerous details. Yes, they are a much longer range rifle, but you pay for that range with a considerable weight increase over your CVA and also, much more recoil when shooting stiff loads.
Now....... it depends on the effort, including expense that you determine is your maximum. The VERY FIRST THING I'd do, even before shooting the rifle a single time, would be to contact Luke at Arrowhead Rifles and purchase his Gen2 breech plug system. The OEM system can have considerable issues, including gas cutting the nipples, piss poor brass primer carriers that can vary to .020" in head thickness and .010" inside flash holes off center. I have no clue where Remington get that brass, but its about as piss poor as you'll find. Its virtually impossible to have the correct head spacing with brass like that. NOTE: BH209 IS NOT AN APPROVED PROPELLANT FOR THE OEM BREECH PLUG.
The Gen2 system completely eliminates ALL problems with the OEM breech plug and you can shoot extremely heavy charges of BH209 that a CVA can only dream of. You can push a 300gr SST at 2,400fps. The Gen2 system is the very first thing I'd do, even before sending one round. Once that system is installed, you're done with breech plug problems, period. They are guaranteed for life also.
Nothing...………. and I mean nothing.... is cheap about sending bullets fast or to long range. Don't even think about a cheap mount, rings, or scope. RUM's will eat cheap scopes like a kid eats candy. Been there.....
Another suggestion...…... do what everyone else is doing: https://www.arrowheadrifles.com/700-ultimate-muzzleloader-upgrades/
As for the Remington, I'd suggest you determine how much you actually plan on shooting first, then determine if it may be worth the 'extra' attention to numerous details. Yes, they are a much longer range rifle, but you pay for that range with a considerable weight increase over your CVA and also, much more recoil when shooting stiff loads.
Now....... it depends on the effort, including expense that you determine is your maximum. The VERY FIRST THING I'd do, even before shooting the rifle a single time, would be to contact Luke at Arrowhead Rifles and purchase his Gen2 breech plug system. The OEM system can have considerable issues, including gas cutting the nipples, piss poor brass primer carriers that can vary to .020" in head thickness and .010" inside flash holes off center. I have no clue where Remington get that brass, but its about as piss poor as you'll find. Its virtually impossible to have the correct head spacing with brass like that. NOTE: BH209 IS NOT AN APPROVED PROPELLANT FOR THE OEM BREECH PLUG.
The Gen2 system completely eliminates ALL problems with the OEM breech plug and you can shoot extremely heavy charges of BH209 that a CVA can only dream of. You can push a 300gr SST at 2,400fps. The Gen2 system is the very first thing I'd do, even before sending one round. Once that system is installed, you're done with breech plug problems, period. They are guaranteed for life also.
Nothing...………. and I mean nothing.... is cheap about sending bullets fast or to long range. Don't even think about a cheap mount, rings, or scope. RUM's will eat cheap scopes like a kid eats candy. Been there.....
Another suggestion...…... do what everyone else is doing: https://www.arrowheadrifles.com/700-ultimate-muzzleloader-upgrades/
Nope. Wife's not gonna go for that. 
I need to figure out an affordable option that has decent accuracy. Found a NIB Vortex 1X scope that is legal here. I will draw a statewide December Any Deer muzzleloader tag in 2020. It's a great tag and I want to do it justice.
Open to suggestions.
I need to figure out an affordable option that has decent accuracy. Found a NIB Vortex 1X scope that is legal here. I will draw a statewide December Any Deer muzzleloader tag in 2020. It's a great tag and I want to do it justice.
Open to suggestions.
ENCORE
WKR
If the wife will allow a RUM price, then maybe take a look at the Knight rifles, SPECIFICALLY, the fast twist 45cal rifles. Knight rifles have been dominating NMLRA inline matches and aggs at Friendship.
The 45cal rifles are excellent shooters and with the right bullet with a high BC, great on whitetail to 500yds using BH209.
Example: https://www.muzzleloaders.com/product/olive-green-ultra-lite-muzzleloader-with-nitride-finish/
The 45cal rifles are excellent shooters and with the right bullet with a high BC, great on whitetail to 500yds using BH209.
Example: https://www.muzzleloaders.com/product/olive-green-ultra-lite-muzzleloader-with-nitride-finish/
I've gotten to play around with both quite a bit and I would lean more towards just getting the best optic you can for the CVA and spending time with load development for it. Pretty easy to get one to 300 but with the right scope those CVAs can be a 400 yard gun. The capacity to shoot more powder in the Rem is a draw but most muzzy bullets don't do very well when they are pushed that hard and I agree with the above statement that you need to spend extra coin on a few upgrades for the Rem like a trigger and a breech plug. The recoil also gets pretty intense with that much powder. Money is better spent on a optic IMO. I put a VX5hd on mine and haven't looked back.
Weight your BH209. 80 weighted grains seems to be a sweet spot for lots of guns and is just under max load. I really like the Harverster scorpion and Parker ballistic extreme Sabots. Be meticulous when loading your ML. Smoothly load your bullets and apply even pressure on the bullet every time.
If your itching for a new Muzzy I'd personally try the new CVA paramount or get a Cooper.
Good luck.
Weight your BH209. 80 weighted grains seems to be a sweet spot for lots of guns and is just under max load. I really like the Harverster scorpion and Parker ballistic extreme Sabots. Be meticulous when loading your ML. Smoothly load your bullets and apply even pressure on the bullet every time.
If your itching for a new Muzzy I'd personally try the new CVA paramount or get a Cooper.
Good luck.
Thanks for the response! I'll give it a try and see what happens!
ENCORE
WKR
In the long run…….. it all depends on what you're ACTUALLY trying to achieve. Also, what will make you HAPPY, not just satisfied.
My dad (R.I.P.) always used to say: "If you don't have the money or time to do it right the first time, where are you going to get the money or time to do it over?"
Its a lesson that at times I wish I'd have paid closer attention to at times, believe me.
As for the Paramount, I'd hold off on that just a little. Everything we've seen so far shows that the "self-head spacing bolt" leaks. It was ridiculously evident in their first video promotion. I do know that Arrowhead Rifles is waiting for one, which when received, he'll FIX that so called, "self-head spacing".
As for extreme accuracy, I don't believe the rifle has proven itself yet at long range. Yeah, promotions might indicate it, but its just getting into the hands of some of the top shooters, which will give it a complete LONG RANGE review (>200yds). I do know that CVA was invited to bring their top shooters to the Spring Nationals at the NMLRA, which are currently in progress. Rather they showed or not is the question unanswered as yet.
As for the Cooper, and this is just me, I'd go with the Knight hands down first.
Here's some advice from a long time muzzleloader, or as the wife would say, "A guy that thinks money grows on trees". The advice above about a quality scope is without question, spot on. All to often, regardless of how high quality a rifle may be, shooters/hunters top them off with weak mounts, rings and a cheap scope, then expect to shoot groups the size of a dime at 100+yds. Honestly, it makes me giggle...………
As far as the CVA production .50cal rifles, any of them, 400yds is a LONG POKE, even with the best of bullets available for the .50cal rifles. Bullet energy drops off like a rock once you get beyond 200-250yds, even with a 300gr bullet, max production rifle charges of BH209, which will drop below 1,000fpe at 300yds +/-.
As for the Remington, I'd make the necessary modifications with the breech plug first. The X-Mark Pro trigger will work fine for most hunters as they are. As far as triggers are concerned, you can install ANY brand of trigger on a Remington 700 action. You can push a 300gr SST bullet using BH209 easily at 2,400fps from a RUM with the Gen2 breech plug with over 1,000fpe at 350yds. Use a higher BC bullet, such as a Parker Black Max, or Pittman and keep the bullet energy over 1,000fpe at 500yds.
As for the recoil, the addition of a muzzle brake, especially the LR Customs T-Rex brake, will allow a child to shoot a RUM with a maximum charge (160grs V) and a 300gr bullet. Here's an video example a buddy made shooting his RUM with a maximum charge. NOTE...……… THERE IS NO WEIGHT WHAT SO EVER ON HIS SLED.
I would suggest this...……… think about everything, exactly what your final expectations really are. Expectations that will make you happy and not just satisfied. Remember what my dad used to say...….
You can always buy a high quality scope, mounts and rings now, add them to your current rifle and go shoot. That stuff transfers to another rifle easily, well short of the mount. Do your homework first. Take it to the wife and discuss long range plans. You might be better off with just a new scope this year and save up for a new rifle next year. Just sneak closer to game till then.
Oh...…………. If you want to end ALL the problems you have now and/or those that might pop up in the future, there's a rifle for sale right here on the site, right now. Just because that is listed as a smokeless rifle, does not mean that it won't shoot BH209 and do it EXCELLENTLY. The rife in that post is a VERY HIGH QUALITY rifle and someone will get an top quality rifle buying it. Top quality is not cheap.
Good luck with your decision.
My dad (R.I.P.) always used to say: "If you don't have the money or time to do it right the first time, where are you going to get the money or time to do it over?"
Its a lesson that at times I wish I'd have paid closer attention to at times, believe me.
As for the Paramount, I'd hold off on that just a little. Everything we've seen so far shows that the "self-head spacing bolt" leaks. It was ridiculously evident in their first video promotion. I do know that Arrowhead Rifles is waiting for one, which when received, he'll FIX that so called, "self-head spacing".
As for extreme accuracy, I don't believe the rifle has proven itself yet at long range. Yeah, promotions might indicate it, but its just getting into the hands of some of the top shooters, which will give it a complete LONG RANGE review (>200yds). I do know that CVA was invited to bring their top shooters to the Spring Nationals at the NMLRA, which are currently in progress. Rather they showed or not is the question unanswered as yet.
As for the Cooper, and this is just me, I'd go with the Knight hands down first.
Here's some advice from a long time muzzleloader, or as the wife would say, "A guy that thinks money grows on trees". The advice above about a quality scope is without question, spot on. All to often, regardless of how high quality a rifle may be, shooters/hunters top them off with weak mounts, rings and a cheap scope, then expect to shoot groups the size of a dime at 100+yds. Honestly, it makes me giggle...………
As far as the CVA production .50cal rifles, any of them, 400yds is a LONG POKE, even with the best of bullets available for the .50cal rifles. Bullet energy drops off like a rock once you get beyond 200-250yds, even with a 300gr bullet, max production rifle charges of BH209, which will drop below 1,000fpe at 300yds +/-.
As for the Remington, I'd make the necessary modifications with the breech plug first. The X-Mark Pro trigger will work fine for most hunters as they are. As far as triggers are concerned, you can install ANY brand of trigger on a Remington 700 action. You can push a 300gr SST bullet using BH209 easily at 2,400fps from a RUM with the Gen2 breech plug with over 1,000fpe at 350yds. Use a higher BC bullet, such as a Parker Black Max, or Pittman and keep the bullet energy over 1,000fpe at 500yds.
As for the recoil, the addition of a muzzle brake, especially the LR Customs T-Rex brake, will allow a child to shoot a RUM with a maximum charge (160grs V) and a 300gr bullet. Here's an video example a buddy made shooting his RUM with a maximum charge. NOTE...……… THERE IS NO WEIGHT WHAT SO EVER ON HIS SLED.
I would suggest this...……… think about everything, exactly what your final expectations really are. Expectations that will make you happy and not just satisfied. Remember what my dad used to say...….
You can always buy a high quality scope, mounts and rings now, add them to your current rifle and go shoot. That stuff transfers to another rifle easily, well short of the mount. Do your homework first. Take it to the wife and discuss long range plans. You might be better off with just a new scope this year and save up for a new rifle next year. Just sneak closer to game till then.
Oh...…………. If you want to end ALL the problems you have now and/or those that might pop up in the future, there's a rifle for sale right here on the site, right now. Just because that is listed as a smokeless rifle, does not mean that it won't shoot BH209 and do it EXCELLENTLY. The rife in that post is a VERY HIGH QUALITY rifle and someone will get an top quality rifle buying it. Top quality is not cheap.
Good luck with your decision.
duckhunter175
WKR
Where are you hunting and what are you hunting? State to State regulations vary greatly.
The Accura is a great rifle, digests BH209 easily and provides great accuracy. If you are looking for a MZ that you can spec out to any state restrictions I think the Accura is the way to go. It will shoot pellets or loose powder, sabots or full bore size projectiles, iron sights with good options or a scope and breech plugs that match state restrictions.
I'm not sure about getting an Accura to 300 yards with enough energy for clean kills. My experience with 3x CVA muzzys is that you quickly reach a point of no return where accuracy quickly diminishes in the chase for velocity that will provide adequate terminal performance at 'long range' for MZ.
If you only hunt a state that allows for a R700 style MZ with a scope, etc then by all means make the upgrade and enjoy extending your range to double that of a traditional in-line.
The Accura is a great rifle, digests BH209 easily and provides great accuracy. If you are looking for a MZ that you can spec out to any state restrictions I think the Accura is the way to go. It will shoot pellets or loose powder, sabots or full bore size projectiles, iron sights with good options or a scope and breech plugs that match state restrictions.
I'm not sure about getting an Accura to 300 yards with enough energy for clean kills. My experience with 3x CVA muzzys is that you quickly reach a point of no return where accuracy quickly diminishes in the chase for velocity that will provide adequate terminal performance at 'long range' for MZ.
If you only hunt a state that allows for a R700 style MZ with a scope, etc then by all means make the upgrade and enjoy extending your range to double that of a traditional in-line.
NextAdventurePls
FNG
I would second everything said about the RUM and the CVA. I have a CVA LR and can consistently hit an 18” gong at 500 yds. BUT like what has been stated... you lose energy at long distances.
What kind of game have you killed and at what distances with this set up?
ENCORE
WKR
Ultimate with a lot of practice...….
180grs T7 (3-T7M pellets)… 300gr Hornady SST.
No CVA will compete. As a matter of fact, CVA is never represented at the muzzleloader matches, or Nationals, at the NMLRA in Friendship, IN.
CVA was invited multiple times and asked to bring their best shooters to both a May match and this month's Nationals, which just finished last week. No one from CVA showed to shoot, even their new Paramount.
Not saying that a CVA can't be accurate at most shooters hunting ranges, but they just don't show in long range shooting.
A witnessed and signed target at 500yds. My very first time shooting 500.
180grs T7 (3-T7M pellets)… 300gr Hornady SST.
No CVA will compete. As a matter of fact, CVA is never represented at the muzzleloader matches, or Nationals, at the NMLRA in Friendship, IN.
CVA was invited multiple times and asked to bring their best shooters to both a May match and this month's Nationals, which just finished last week. No one from CVA showed to shoot, even their new Paramount.
Not saying that a CVA can't be accurate at most shooters hunting ranges, but they just don't show in long range shooting.
A witnessed and signed target at 500yds. My very first time shooting 500.
I would just say this- all of the ethical considerations associated with long distance hunting come into play much closer in with blackpowder rifles. Even if you can get a rifle to group well at 400 yards, do you really want to be hitting an animal like an elk with a projectile that is equivalent to shooting it with a compact .45 handgun?
ENCORE
WKR
Yes, there are many considerations involved in long range hunting or shooting, wind being a huge factor. Long range hunting or shooting isn't something that one who shoots a few rounds each year should attempt. Long range shooting/hunting takes an exceptional amount of practice, all year long.
However, I would recommend that you use ballistics data when comparing say, a 300gr Parker Black Max bullet traveling at 2,400fps from either a RUM or UF rifle to the 45 ACP handgun data.
So lets do a ballistics comparison of the two and find out how equivalent they really are.
Using the data easily found on the web for the .45 ACP "compact" first...….
Now lets use the calculated ballistics information for the 300gr Black Max out of either the RUM or UF muzzleloaders at 2,400fps...…..
Like comparing a rabbit to a raging bull...….
Note: Some complete custom build 45cal muzzleloaders using high BC 300gr or 325gr bullets, are capable of much more velocity, increasing bullet energy well beyond the data shown immediately above.
I wouldn't exactly describe an anemic 1600 FPS as "a raging bull-" that's about the minimum I'd want to shoot a big game animal with. And, the ballistic example you give is much more powerful than the vast majority of blackpowder setups, which top out at 1800-2000 FPS. By 400 yards, if you do some math, you'll see that it does, indeed, fall well below the velocity of the .45 ACP +P projectiles shown in your chart above. The bullets are certainly larger than those of .45 ACP, but terminal performance is severely diminished by that point.
I'm not saying it's not possible to hunt at or past 400 yards with a blackpowder rifle. The setup you mention above is probably capable of doing so. The OP appears to be new to blackpowder hunting, however, and my point is that hunting at those distances with muzzleloaders is not ethical unless you've spent a very long time fine tuning your setup and have a lot of experience with it. Screenshot courtesy of Outdoor Life magazine showing analysis of realistic capabilities of most muzzleloaders.
ENCORE
WKR
I wouldn't exactly describe an anemic 1600 FPS as "a raging bull-" that's about the minimum I'd want to shoot a big game animal with. And, the ballistic example you give is much more powerful than the vast majority of blackpowder setups, which top out at 1800-2000 FPS. By 400 yards, if you do some math, you'll see that it does, indeed, fall well below the velocity of the .45 ACP +P projectiles shown in your chart above. The bullets are certainly larger than those of .45 ACP, but terminal performance is severely diminished by that point.
I'm not saying it's not possible to hunt at or past 400 yards with a blackpowder rifle. The setup you mention above is probably capable of doing so. The OP appears to be new to blackpowder hunting, however, and my point is that hunting at those distances with muzzleloaders is not ethical unless you've spent a very long time fine tuning your setup and have a lot of experience with it. Screenshot courtesy of Outdoor Life magazine showing analysis of realistic capabilities of most muzzleloaders.
I've been at this game for a long time and I can tell you for fact and through much experience, bullet energy and bullet performance is much more important than velocity. I've taken many animals beyond 200yds with production rifles and production charges and with todays modern inline rifles, improved propellants and improved bullets, 200yds in a qualified hunters hands is a chip shot.
If you look over the chart again, the velocity may be down to 1,600fps, but, the bullet's energy is still over 1,700fpe. More than enough energy.
Is a CVA production rifle capable of that? Absolutely not. However, the OP's question related to the CVA or the capabilities of the Remington Ultimate.
But what we can do is compare a production rifle and a maximum charge of BH209, 120grs VOLUME, using the same bullet results using a Remington Ultimate.
Ballistics indicate that the RUM with a 300gr bullet shot at 2,100fps MV (production charge), has still has more energy than 45ACP at the muzzle at 400yds, with near 1,300fpe.
Notice also...… at 500yds the bullet meets the minimum energy from the Outdoor Life information to ethically kill a whitetail deer.
Bullet energy on target, along with bullet performance is everything no matter the range, but more important at longer ranges.
There are a number of excellent long range bullets available to muzzleloaders today. No, a 300gr XTP is not going to do anyone right at 400yds, nor are most other production bullets. However, bullets made for long range with a high BC are very capable. Examples are bullets sold by Arrowhead Rifles, Parker Productions, Pittman Bullets, Fury, etc.
Yes you have to know what any wind will do when shooting long range, even with a RUM or custom rifle and the best bullets available. With education and practice its not as hard as most writers portray.
Muzzleloading has come a long way in the last few years. Unfortunately most don't understand it and many could care less. If the game you hunt you prefer to be 100yds or less, then long range means nothing to the average shooter. However, if you're one who wants to extend their range, its just education and lots of practice.
Agreed on this- if you redline the nicest rifle money can buy with the maximum recommended powder charge using custom ammunition, 400 yards may be doable. Considering that this thread is about a shooter who bought a CVA last year, has six posts and is exploring the range he is capable of shooting, I think it is unethical to advertise the same distances professionals are shooting at national matches as a viable hunting distance.
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