Shooting a nanny

[kodiakfly]

I quit hunting whitetails even before I left the Midwest because of all the crap surrounding that species...I'd kill a 121 buck and then a buddy kills a 130 and suddenly my buck is crap because it didn't make P&Y, or I'd pass on 100" deer and then not get a buck that year and kick myself for it...so on. I got to where I was hunting to prove myself and compete with the local clique and it was miserable. I'm hoping I've learned to be bigger than that. But having never killed a goat, and not being a rifle hunter I know I need to take any legal shot I can and not be too picky about it. Sure I'd love to haul a big billy home, but right now I'm like the only guy on Kodiak that hasn't shot a goat. And I'd rather catch flack over shooting a nannie than catch flack over never having killed a goat at all.

But how many guys catch halibut on a fly rod? See? No one cares. That's why I need to kill a goat.

 

[idig4au]

Not on purpose anymore. I enjoy hunting goats. Shooting nanny goats doesn't help a herd. Billys provide more meat.

Plus I hunt for a challenge. Locating and sucessfully killing a target animal is very satifying to me as a hunter. Whacking a nanny just doesn't do it for me.

I'm kinda aligned with this comment and rational......

 

[SJ-AK]

I am not a big fan of shooting nannies. The biggest reason is how it effects the herd population. There is a reason here in Alaska why biologists do not want you to take nannies. Having said that it is a legal harvest and I understand why hunters will take a nannie. It does seem like there are a lot more pictures of nannies posted online lately then there has been in the past.

I don't know how it is in other states, but many of the Alaska ranges I have hunted goats in a billy can be more of a challenge. Especially the old mature billy who is off by himself in rocks rather than a group of nannies at a lower elevation.

Mt Goat hunting may be my personal favorite because of so many opportunities to hunt healthy herds in different areas. Taking the occasional nannie will not have an impact, but if a lot of goat hunters take nannies, some of those opportunities will go away.

 

[Nick Muche]

I won't be picky this year on my goat hunt. If a nanny is in the best place for a stalk/shot, then that's what I will go after. If it's a billy, well then that's what I will pursue. Either way, it should be a fun time. I hunt for no one but myself.

 

[shanevg]

This is a very loaded question in my opinion. The OP specifically mentioned shooting a nanny in a healthy herd which should be a pre-amble to any consideration of shooting a nanny in my opinion but more so than that, there are a lot of factors that should be taken into consideration before purposefully considering shooting a nanny.

First of all, it is important to note that mountain goat populations do not follow the same population trends of other ungulates (particularly deer and elk.) Healthy deer and elk populations can both tolerate 10-20% harvest rates in a given year and the population will continue to repopulate in that specific location. When harvest quotas were first implemented for mountain goats (in most states this was in the '60's and '70's) game managers tried to manage goat herds using the same statistics they used to manage deer/elk herds which ended up resulting in overharvest of most herds to the point that many herds are completely gone or had to be closed for a decade or more to recuperate.

As other posters have pointed out, nanny goats usually do not being reproducing until 3.5-5.5 years and are usually fertile until until ages 12-15. On the flip side, deer and elk can start reproducing sometimes as young as 1.5 (usually 2.5) years and are usually fertile until 10-12 years old. Additionally, where it is quite common for deer and elk to produce twins or even triplets, especially in herds with a good environment to support a larger herd. It is exceptionally rate for goats to have twins and almost unheard of for them to have triplets. Marco Festa-Bianchet and Steeve D. Cote are considered the foremost knowledge on mountain goat herd fecundity (reproduction) and if memory serves correctly in 17 years of monitoring a herd of 100+ goats there were only 2 or 3 instances of twins being born. Furthermore they state multiple reports on herds that were not considered healthy and the instance of twins was often even lower in those herds.) For this reason alone, shooting a goat without a nanny often results in shooting the young goats from a herd and severely impacts herd health and stability moving forward.

With all of that said, there are still some major exceptions to that rule. Festa-Bianchet/Cote's research revealed something peculiarly unique about mountain goat herds. Where an established herd has a relatively set reproductive rate that is basically set herd to herd (e.g. WA compared to BC compared to AK), introduced herds were recorded with SIGNIFICANTLY higher reproductive rates, much more similar to common deer/elk herds. Herds that had been introduced in Montana (Crazy Mountains), UT, CO, NV, and OR were all reproducing at significantly higher rates than the native herds those goats were transplanted from. Even more interesting (in my opinion) was that wildlife managers could artificially maintain that high level of reproduction by setting high harvest quotas. It is for this reason that herds in states like UT and CO have a significantly higher quota per 100 goats than states like WA, ID, and most of MT. Once the herd has been established, even if the herd is in significant decline, the reproduction rate slows down and cannot (or has not yet) be manipulated to the higher reproduction rates of other introduced herds.

That all brings us back to shooting a nanny. In general most states do allow the legal harvest of either a nanny or billy in most any unit (with a billy tag.) From what I can gather, that is primarily due to the fact that it is so (relatively) difficult to distinguish the difference between a billy and a nanny that they don't want to make it illegal to accidentally shoot a nanny. But as a rule of thumb, it should be avoided at all costs shooting a nanny out of an established and/or native herd (found in AK, BC, ID, MT, WA) unless the local game department or biologist has told you otherwise. (From my understanding, Kodiak Island is experiencing an overpopulation of goats at this time? which may be resulting in the increased quotas and season lengths on that island. That may be an exception to the rule per local biologists.) On the other hand, in some states like CO and UT (which both offer a relatively high number of nanny tags each year) nanny harvest is actually vital to herd health and continued high reproductive rates (which results in high hunter opportunity.) In those states, is is a great idea to harvest nannies under F&G guideines.

Hopefully that makes sense to everyone, feel free to post any questions which I would be happy to attempt to answer as much as my (admittedly limited) knowledge allows.

 

[SJ-AK]

Very interesting data concerning higher reproduction rates among transplanted herds. Thank you. Do you have a link to that study by any chance?

 

[ketchadeer]

I agree with what shanevg said. He said it much more thoroughly. That study you mentioned, ecology of mountain goats was good one and one of the more recent research reads I have found. The beast the color of winter is another good book by Douglas Chadwick, the last chapter is about management, but does not get into the statistics of cote-bianchet. In Alaska, I believe Kodiak to to be the only place where goats are booming, hence the long season and 2 per year quota. This also follows along with the research of an introduced non-native population boom.

 

[Yellowknife]

I'm going to be hunting goats for the first time this year, so am following this with some interest. My personal (very uneducated) opinion is that I would be much more likely to shoot a nanny on Kodiak where the population is on a long term growth trend, than I would be in SE Alaska, were the take is highly regulated and controlled.

I'm going to be hunting a portion of the Chugach that I understand has been experiencing population growth for quite a while, but is still a relatively small herd all things considered. I'll be hunting for a billy, but as a rookie I realize it's quite possible that I could take a nanny by mistake. I'll also be talking to the local bio before I go, and will be taking his comments into consideration before I decide if I would target a nanny intentionally. The draw hunt has both a low participation rate and a low resident success rate, so the billy/nanny question may be fairly irrelevant to herd health.

Yk

 

[shanevg]

I have yet to find a full transcript of the Festa-Bianchet/Cote research online (if you Google them, you'll find them referenced in pretty much every single mountain goat paper that has been published since 2007. All the biologists I've talked to say it is the pre-eminent research used for mountain goat management.

You can buy the book on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Mountain-Goat...396309815&sr=8-1&keywords=mountain+goats+cote) which is where I got it. It's a great book but be forewarned it is a very dense read.

Ketchadeer is correct - A Beast the Color of Winter by Chadwick does touch on mountain goat management as well and is a very good book in it's own rights. Not near as comprehensive (or dense) as Festa-Bianchet/Cote but still a very good read.

 

[shanevg]

I'm going to be hunting a portion of the Chugach that I understand has been experiencing population growth for quite a while, but is still a relatively small herd all things considered. I'll be hunting for a billy, but as a rookie I realize it's quite possible that I could take a nanny by mistake. I'll also be talking to the local bio before I go, and will be taking his comments into consideration before I decide if I would target a nanny intentionally. The draw hunt has both a low participation rate and a low resident success rate, so the billy/nanny question may be fairly irrelevant to herd health.

Yk

That may very well be true. If the biologist indicates that as well, then go for it.

I definitely don't want to be seen as discouraging people from shooting nannies as it can certainly be justified in many different instances. I just think it's important to know the herd's health before you intentionally shoot one. I know here in WA, they manage so conservatively already that shooting a nanny does nothing but decrease other hunter's future opportunities at drawing a tag.

 

[60x]

Shanevg very informative post I appreciate your input. Again I was very selective in my question since like I mentioned in an earlier post I do believe we must be responsible hunters. I also know some of our areas here can definitely support nanny harvest and some areas simply cannot and I believe that is a game changer at least for me. I know when I took the nanny I shot on the last day of the season it was discussed prior with the bio..

YK I'm anxious to hear a report from your hunt with your dad. Goats are becoming one of my favorites and I'm curious to the population back in there. I seen one last years where you sent me and I would of loved to have a tag. He was a beauty!! I also wonder if their management goals in 14 have anything to do with sheep populations.. I might have to pick Brockmans brain on that one..

 

[mtnclimber]

Im no goat-ologist but goats seem to have some extreme swings. Ive seen go populations go from healthy to adfg closing seasons for years. So i choose not to shoot nannies partially for fear of contributing to a bad swing in numbers. erring on the side of caution will only help our population to grow i say.

 

[tater]

Coming from a region that saw it's resident goat population extirpated through the harvesting of nannies, i would caution those thinking long and hard about the consequences future-wise of a nanny harvest. As Shane pointed out, they can't be managed like whitetails, and our MOE discovered this too late.

It was a very rapid decline based on poor breeding age population retention, as well as increased kid mortality based on nannies being harvested in family groups that weren't actually dry. The population dropped from managed huntable numbers (Limited Entry only, 30 tags per year) to zero population in the space of 20 years. A lone goat was spotted in a remote drainage last spring, the first one seen since 2000.

My thought is unless your bios have decided to issue nanny specific tags in order to reach management goals, it isn't in the best interest of the herds to take nannies. If one isn't capable or patient enough to wait out a goat to properly determine it's sex, or 'meat in freezer trumps all', maybe hunting a different species is more workable.

 

[SJ-AK]

I was speaking with a biologist prior to a goat hunt in the Wrangell's two years ago. I was asking about the herd health, etc and she said that if we were to have a nuclear holocaust, two animals would survive. Mountain goats and porcupines. She went on to discuss how sheep populations can be affected so severely by winter weather and other environmental conditions while Mt. goats just keep toughing it out and populations remain stable. In her opinion, hunting has the most direct affects on a herds population.

 

[Bambistew]

IMO, if the management dictates that nannies are in surplus, go for it.

Personally I don't have to kill an animal to have a successful hunt. I don't think I could bring myself to shooting a nanny, just because I could.

 

[Gman]

I took a nanny two years ago on a nanny-only tag in CO. Our genetics produce some huge Nannies and taking them is necessary for herd health. I guess it's all dependent on the area you're hunting. It was an amazing hunt and now that proud goat is displayed in my home. And it tasted great. I was able to draw in about 6 yrs vs. waiting 20 and I'll be eligible to draw a billy tag in CO in my lifetime. Part of it comes down to how you want to pay the draw game. Wouldn't hesitate to do it again.

 

[Yellowknife]

That may very well be true. If the biologist indicates that as well, then go for it.

I definitely don't want to be seen as discouraging people from shooting nannies as it can certainly be justified in many different instances. I just think it's important to know the herd's health before you intentionally shoot one. I know here in WA, they manage so conservatively already that shooting a nanny does nothing but decrease other hunter's future opportunities at drawing a tag.

I just talked to a local biologist for my tag. Sounds like the population is stable, but still not overly large. The number of tags has been tightly controlled the last few years by both drawings and by capping the issued registration tag numbers, so the odds of killing too many goats is very low, but they still encourage taking billies whenever possible. I'll bring good glass and be doing my best, but the whole thing is going to be a learning experience for me.

Yk

 

[orionthehunter1]

I went the same route as gman and had a great hunt. I also just looked at the harvest/horn stats on the DOW page and my goat was the oldest taken in the unit. To me any goat is a trophy and if the herd is doing well taking older class nannies out of it only helps it. I would rather see 8+ year old nannies harvested than 2 year old billies.

 

[SJ-AK]

I would rather see 8+ year old nannies harvested than 2 year old billies.

No offense Orion, but what are you basing that on? I cannot speak for what works in the Lower 48 for goat management, but that is the exact opposite strategy to what is encouraged here in Alaska.

Here is a link to a good article on managing Mt Goats in Alaska:

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlifenews.view_article&articles_id=522

Too quote a few key lines:

“Research shows that when a population is in decline, if you continue to harvest nannies, and especially older nannies, you can lose the whole population,” Mooney said. “Since the average age of breeding females is four, and some females don’t breed until they are five or even six, you lose a lot of your recruitment.”

“People were taking older nannies, generally meaning you don’t have the young ones out there. They’re taking the breeding crop.”


The ideal management tool would be to restrict hunters to taking only billy goats. One billy can impregnate many nannies, and protecting nannies means more kids. But the difficulty in distinguishing nannies from billies makes that impractical.


From a goat biologist in Alberta:

Older nannies are critical to the herd’s growth as well. “About 80 percent of the 9 to 11 year-old-females have a kid each year,” he said, “These are the primary contributors to the population. Longevity is key to reproductive success.” First time mothers – at four or five years old – tend to be somewhat less successful. The older nannies tend to have more kids that live past one year of age. The younger nannies also tend to skip a year and not get pregnant, a reproductive pause. Alaska researchers observed similar tendencies.

 

[sheepguide]

I hunted goats in BC in 2010. It was a do it your self hunt and was in an area with good goat numbers. We saw alot of goats but all the billies we saw were young and 8" or smaller. We saw a Nanny early that was easy to tell was very mature and lookied to have lots of age rings. She was without a kid and was living alone in some rugged cliffs. Late in the hunt I decided to harvest this Nanny and was just over 9 1/2" and she was aged at 13+ as there were so many age rings stacked at the base it was next to impossible to decipher some. When I registered this goat they felt it was a great goat to harvest. I for sure wouldnt harvest a Nanny if I was able to find a mature billy of any sort but on this hunt she was the best goat to harvest in my opinion. looked like in this area the mature billies had been kept to a minimum do to fairly easy access.