Shooting a Kimber Mountain Ascent accurately

[menhaden_man]

Imagine a rifle suspended in space. When it fires it will recoil nearly perfectly straight to the rear. During recoil and after recoil it will remain on target. The only reason that it doesn’t happen when humans shoot it, is due to tension that is not neutral. If you took that same rifle and fired it with the butt placed perfectly flat and perpendicular to a brick wall it will also recoil nearly straight back with a slight up and right movement to the barrel during recoil, but it will return to the target after recoil. This slight up and right happens due to the bore (recoil line) being above the center of the butt pad. Now imagine the exact same thing, but instead of a brick wall, it’s wet sand. The same thing happens. The sand gives a bit, however due to being straight behind the rifle it returns to where it started, and since no outside pressure left/right/up/down is applied, it remains inline with the target.

Now take that same rifle, attach a tight bungee cord to the forend and angle the rifle to the left 45 degrees from the surface of the brick wall and imagine what happens when it fires? Not so good. Now imagine the same but with the butt against a trampoline.... that’s how most people shoot a rifle- rifle angled across their body with the shoulder acting like a trampoline. Now add in the bungee cord (sling) and it’s a sure recipe for sub par performance.


I’m not stating that slings or a forend hold is “wrong”. Slings can a great help. Holding the forend can be good. Neither is the panacea that he claims, and in all cases will result in more inconsistencies and variables that must be accounted for. What I’m stating is that his position that NOT using the sling and holding the forend is wrong and is due to laziness. That’s ridiculous. The crosse arm hold as he calls it, came about not due to laziness, but because it is the most consistent way to shoot a rifle from a rest.



As to the article.....

First is his trying to convince the reader that pre WWII soldiers used slings, and post they did not. He uses misleading and ad hoc statemsts and obviously false pictures to show this.

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This picture for instance, is supposedly proof that soldiers had gotten lazy with shooting. Except the dude isn’t shooting. He is scanning in security.



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Same with this one. He isn’t shooting- he’s scanning. Notice all the other guys sitting out on the open, to say nothing of his spotter sitting right beside him. Read the caption- it is deliberately misleading. Any one that has been a sniper or actually understands it, would immediately know what those guys are doing. So either he doesn’t know the subject, or he is cherry picking pictures to form a false narrative.




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Full stocked rifles (captured barrels) don’t have point of impact shifts when using a tight sling or when using a rest...? Absolute nonsense. They have POI shifts because the wood is touching the barrel.




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The rifle recoils up and to the right primarily because of poor body position (shown below), and secondarily because of poor stock design. For most the way to fix that is not by adding another couple of variables- sling tension and hand position/pressure. Adding those things to already poor body position and stock design causes all the issues that he’s trying to correct. Inconsistency, uneven torque and tension causing “flyers”.




View attachment 171081

So an 4’5” 11year old girl, a 40 year old 6’5” dude, and a 20 year old 5’2” woman have the exact same hand sizes and their fingers go in the exact the same position? Hand sizes vary, finger length vary, finger strength varries. It doesn’t matter what part of the finger is touching the trigger, only the the force is coming straight to the rear and the finger breaks at 90 degrees. Where that position is will be different for each person.


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If POI is shifting between a sandbag and a pack, you have a problem. In this case because your adding uneven torque and tension with a sling.




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So we add more variables (front and rear hand tension), along variable sling tension and wonder why there’s a POI shift? Is this repeatable for most people in the field.



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While he is correct that ideally you want the full pad to have contact with the shoulder, putting the pad low in the shoulder generally comes from subconsciously moving the gun into a position where it smacks your cheek less. People revert to this on their own, and removing rifle fit, it’s because the gun jumps less during recoil. It jumps less because the deeper you get the pad in your shoulder, the lower the bore line is. Aka- correcting poor stock design. The more drop at heel the worse it is.




View attachment 171119


So there’s POI sifts from sandbag to backpack, now there’s POI shifts from pack to a hand between the pack? What else causes those shifts? If that’s the case, then how is someone ever going to hit anything if the slightest change in rests is causing misses?
The reason people are missing when using the front hand under the forend is due to inconsistency. They tighten or relax their hand during the shot (anticipation/flinch).



Con’t...

Appreciate the explanation... my thought was a little simpler - if this guy is so badass, why isn't he shooting alongside with Ray Gross, David Tubb, and Randy Wise at Camp Atterbury? Speaking of, that dude Wise reportedly rung steel 3/3 at over 2100 yards... looks like his form is all wrong though .

An NRA Shooting Sports Journal | Ray Gross, David Tubb Dominate 2019 NRA ELR Championship

Ray Gross posted the high score using a 33XC rifle developed by Paul Phillips; David Tubb wins ELR Heavy class using TUBBGUN chambered in 37XC.

www.ssusa.org

 

[C Bow]

This is awesome I love reading this stuff

 

[prm]

I have an 84m in 338Fed and a Fieldcraft in 6.5 CM with two different stocks. Both shoot much better when held just as you would when shooting offhand. You must support the forend. But it’s really evident with the 84m. I’ve done back to back groups without holding the forend and that does not work. Maybe it does with a .223 or very low recoil cartridge.

 

[waitforit]

I shoot a heavy Savage 30-06 and dont do anything special - i dont hold the forend at all, more or less free recoil and it shoots great. That kimber needs a big bearhug to shoot really well.

 

[Ram94]

I have nothing personally against Nathan Foster, don’t know him, have never met him. His book and writings got a lot of traction for a while, but there is so much glaringly false or misunderstood in them, that it all has to be looked at with a jaundiced eye.

Thank you for the detailed explanation Form, and from what I understand you are saying it’s not so much which technique you use as long as the rifle isn’t being pushed and pulled in directions causing it to recoil off target? I am curious though, how you go about holding your rifle when shooting a lightweight. Do you use cross-arm or do you hold the fore-end? Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Formidilosus]

Thank you for the detailed explanation Form, and from what I understand you are saying it’s not so much which technique you use as long as the rifle isn’t being pushed and pulled in directions causing it to recoil off target?

Correct, but in general there really is only one way to do so from multiple positions.

I am curious though, how you go about holding your rifle when shooting a lightweight. Do you use cross-arm or do you hold the fore-end? Thanks!

Zeroing is almost always “crossed arm”, but that’s not what’s really important. What’s important is straight line, neutral recoil. If the stock has a lot of drop at heel, then I may C-Clamp the forend. However that is due more to see impacts, than for group size. In doing so I understand that I’m giving up in one area (consistency) to gain in another (control).

In the field it varies based on the situation. I’ve got mechanics down to the point where I can shoot from some really funky positions and still be neutral, so it is mainly about getting the correct balance between steadiness (reducing wobble zone) and recoil control (spotting impacts).

This past season I killed at-

576 yards prone on pack with rear bag and crossed arm.

Sub 100 offhand.

187 (I believe) kneeling over pack

801 yards prone on pack crossed arm, no rear bag.

388 (I believe) kneeling on pack

606 yards prone on pack, C clamp on forend.

 

[HunterMN]

Correct, but in general there really is only one way to do so from multiple positions.







Zeroing is almost always “crossed arm”, but that’s not what’s really important. What’s important is straight line, neutral recoil. If the stock has a lot of drop at heel, then I may C-Clamp the forend. However that is due more to see impacts, than for group size. In doing so I understand that I’m giving up in one area (consistency) to gain in another (control).

In the field it varies based on the situation. I’ve got mechanics down to the point where I can shoot from some really funky positions and still be neutral, so it is mainly about getting the correct balance between steadiness (reducing wobble zone) and recoil control (spotting impacts).

This past season I killed at-

576 yards prone on pack with rear bag and crossed arm.

Sub 100 offhand.

187 (I believe) kneeling over pack

801 yards prone on pack crossed arm, no rear bag.

388 (I believe) kneeling on pack

606 yards prone on pack, C clamp on forend.

Thanks for all the great insight. Can I ask how heavy of a rifle your shooting? Are they really light or just kinda of average weight? I understand what your saying about shooting form being more important than weight, but still curious on rifle weight. Thanks again for all the great information so far!

 

[Formidilosus]

Can I ask how heavy of a rifle your shooting? Are they really light or just kinda of average weight?

Kimber Montana’s and MA’s, Barret Fieldcrafts, etc. I.E.- from just under 6lbs all up to 7.5 lbs.


I also am not shooting 3 round groups and getting frustrated when one is “good” and the next has “flyers”. 10 round groups minimum and the true group starts to form.

 

[HNTR918]

I'm no professional but this is what I do and it has definitely helped in the field. Using my tripod as a front rest and pack as a rear support or vise versa has helped with shots over 300 using a sub 8lb rifle/scope/ammo system. I also run 60 second drills in my living room when I can't get to the range. Tripod folded and packed, rifle slung, pack on...all the way to the trigger press on a scaled down target across the room while watching the cross hairs. If I setup correctly, the cross hairs don't move when the fire pin is released. (I also work on similar shooting positions with my pack: laying down, against a "tree", and using a trekking pole as a rear support.) Adding jumping jacks, push ups, and doing stairs before hand also helps. I've never taken a shot on an animal when my breathing was slow and adrenaline low. Practice how you want to preform.

 

[SkunkCabbage]

I've found for bench shooting to follow some of these tips.

I've went as far as removing my swivel studs and putting synthetic running t-shirts on my bags to allow for movement.
Lean into the gun
hold the fore end like a firm handshake and same with the grip. Don't squeeze it to death
feet planted well and supported so you have a stable base.
Rest yourself on your bench so there isn't a bunch of wasted movement.

Takes practice and a little time but it pays off.
SLOW DOWN

 

[Outdoorsman12b]

Correct, but in general there really is only one way to do so from multiple positions.







Zeroing is almost always “crossed arm”, but that’s not what’s really important. What’s important is straight line, neutral recoil. If the stock has a lot of drop at heel, then I may C-Clamp the forend. However that is due more to see impacts, than for group size. In doing so I understand that I’m giving up in one area (consistency) to gain in another (control).

In the field it varies based on the situation. I’ve got mechanics down to the point where I can shoot from some really funky positions and still be neutral, so it is mainly about getting the correct balance between steadiness (reducing wobble zone) and recoil control (spotting impacts).

This past season I killed at-

576 yards prone on pack with rear bag and crossed arm.

Sub 100 offhand.

187 (I believe) kneeling over pack

801 yards prone on pack crossed arm, no rear bag.

388 (I believe) kneeling on pack

606 yards prone on pack, C clamp on forend.

When you shoot kneeling from pack what do you do with hand position on forend? I had two 3 shots on game last year kneeling from my pack (MR Marshall) on top of frame. The rifle was steady holding forend but stability on shot was not great. All resulted in kill subs 200 yards but I did not get consistent results from POA to POI. Two shots hit right where I put it put the 3rd was high left.

 

[Formidilosus]

When you shoot kneeling from pack what do you do with hand position on forend? I had two 3 shots on game last year kneeling from my pack (MR Marshall) on top of frame. The rifle was steady holding forend but stability on shot was not great. All resulted in kill subs 200 yards but I did not get consistent results from POA to POI. Two shots hit right where I put it put the 3rd was high left.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It’s about stability and control so it varies.

Do you have, or can you take a picture of you in position?

 

[thinhorn_AK]

I printed those targets, I’m going to start doing that drill. One or twice a week.

 

[Outdoorsman12b]

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It’s about stability and control so it varies.

Do you have, or can you take a picture of you in position?

I will and send to you

 

[Wacko]

I was reading about Tikkas in general and came across this thread as well referencing shooting light rifles.

I have to say I find it quite puzzling. I've been reading some of Terminal Ballistics Research and Nathan Foster has around 8000 animals on the ground now, with autopsies to show bullet performance and cartridge capabilities. A lot of them taken at long range - on video too. Yet he and his shooting techniques are to be dismissed as not relevant? He needs to be shooting with David Tubb and others to be so? Is Formidilosus?

All I can say, is from what I have read here he and Formidilosus are saying the same things. You have to have good mechanics to shoot any rifle well. After your mechanics are down, you can adapt them to different and "unique" situations and positions.

As for a sling and forend hold.....well I'm sure glad my PMI in the USMC taught me how to shoot slung otherwise I wouldn't have qualified to be a Marine! Shooting High Power matches it helped too! Also, David Tubb and all the match shooters are shooting slung, and holding the forend of their rifles. They seem to be getting along well enough.

An article by TUBB....

Accuracy and Hunting

The freezer gets filled when hunting and target shooting meet.

www.rifleshootermag.com

Personally, I see the trend to light recoiling heavy rifles in PRS as counter productive to shooting "in general". My friend has a 6 creed with a brake that weighs 26lbs!! That's so he can shoot any messed up way they want - without having to actually "shoot" the rifle.

All the guys shooting ELR are shooting heavy guns, with brakes and wide bipods to eliminate shooter influence. That is not the way most of us hunt.

I see hunters wanting a 6lb rifle in a magnum and wondering why it is punishing and hard to shoot. Formi himself recommends light recoilers.....in light hunting guns....there are reasons for it. Or he holds, "C clamps", the forend for "control"....

If you want to shoot a light hunter go for it, but don't think there is only "one way" or form to shoot it to your expectations. Try different methods out. Maybe even put a brake on it. I like a light weight rifle as much as anyone...4 tikka t3x's, 2 of which are "superlights", plus many others I've owned in the past....I'm most likely going to get a KRG bravo for one of the tikkas, to see if I can use a sling without bending the forend or causing POI shifts. I still favor shooting with ANY extra support I can get - period. I know when shooting with a sling it is usually a good thing...or old habits are hard to break.

Sorry for the thread resurrection....I must be feeling cranky due to the current world status....

 

[tdhanses]

I have nothing personally against Nathan Foster, don’t know him, have never met him. His book and writings got a lot of traction for a while, but there is so much glaringly false or misunderstood in them, that it all has to be looked at with a jaundiced eye.

I picked his book up 5 or 6 years ago, didn’t take long to stop reading it once I really started shooting and wasn’t just plinking.

 

[Wrench]

I took my 300wsm to 1157 and filmed 2 back to back hits off my pack in about a minute. Here's the nuts and bolts of it.

It most certainly can be shot accurately, but is one of the least user friendly tools for the job.

 

[Lawnboi]

I was reading about Tikkas in general and came across this thread as well referencing shooting light rifles.

I have to say I find it quite puzzling. I've been reading some of Terminal Ballistics Research and Nathan Foster has around 8000 animals on the ground now, with autopsies to show bullet performance and cartridge capabilities. A lot of them taken at long range - on video too. Yet he and his shooting techniques are to be dismissed as not relevant? He needs to be shooting with David Tubb and others to be so? Is Formidilosus?

All I can say, is from what I have read here he and Formidilosus are saying the same things. You have to have good mechanics to shoot any rifle well. After your mechanics are down, you can adapt them to different and "unique" situations and positions.

As for a sling and forend hold.....well I'm sure glad my PMI in the USMC taught me how to shoot slung otherwise I wouldn't have qualified to be a Marine! Shooting High Power matches it helped too! Also, David Tubb and all the match shooters are shooting slung, and holding the forend of their rifles. They seem to be getting along well enough.

An article by TUBB....

Accuracy and Hunting

The freezer gets filled when hunting and target shooting meet.

www.rifleshootermag.com

Personally, I see the trend to light recoiling heavy rifles in PRS as counter productive to shooting "in general". My friend has a 6 creed with a brake that weighs 26lbs!! That's so he can shoot any messed up way they want - without having to actually "shoot" the rifle.

All the guys shooting ELR are shooting heavy guns, with brakes and wide bipods to eliminate shooter influence. That is not the way most of us hunt.

I see hunters wanting a 6lb rifle in a magnum and wondering why it is punishing and hard to shoot. Formi himself recommends light recoilers.....in light hunting guns....there are reasons for it. Or he holds, "C clamps", the forend for "control"....

If you want to shoot a light hunter go for it, but don't think there is only "one way" or form to shoot it to your expectations. Try different methods out. Maybe even put a brake on it. I like a light weight rifle as much as anyone...4 tikka t3x's, 2 of which are "superlights", plus many others I've owned in the past....I'm most likely going to get a KRG bravo for one of the tikkas, to see if I can use a sling without bending the forend or causing POI shifts. I still favor shooting with ANY extra support I can get - period. I know when shooting with a sling it is usually a good thing...or old habits are hard to break.

Sorry for the thread resurrection....I must be feeling cranky due to the current world status....

It’s interesting to look at the different disciplines and how rifles are handled. Those guys are shooting a lot, just like the prs guys. If there was no skill to it everyone would be hitting all the targets. My current PRS rig is 15 pounds, 6.5 cm with a brake. Shooting positional it lets me know fast if I’m not managing recoil correctly.... that’s a 15 pound 6.5cm. Not close to 8lb magnums we see on here very often.

I think if more people shot their hunting rifles enough to actually learn them from multiple positions, under time; ultralight rifles wouldn’t be as popular as they are. Too many hunters out there taking box data, having a custom turret cut, plinking a few big plates off the bench and think they are good to go.

Light rifles can certainly be shot, I just don’t think most are putting in the time off the bench to do so. I know I certainly have not.

Iv drank the form koolaid, started shooting PRS and much more positional and less prone And bench shooting. I sold my light magnums, and told myself one day if my effective range determines I need a magnum cartridge, that I’ll cross that road when the time comes. Until then I’ll continue to refine my skills with what I can afford to shoot.

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

I've read Form posts on multiple forums. Seems a non stop complaint of Stock Design and very few designs with negative comb drop (did I get that correct?).

I've had schitty stock designs and builds. Some were harder to hang onto than others.

But if this is really the case.....why are there only 2 stock designs out if how many McM and Manners molds that meet this criteria? Think only the Gunwerks and AG Comp for Mesa design fit this "negative drop" comb design/specs.

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

It’s interesting to look at the different disciplines and how rifles are handled. Those guys are shooting a lot, just like the prs guys. If there was no skill to it everyone would be hitting all the targets. My current PRS rig is 15 pounds, 6.5 cm with a brake. Shooting positional it lets me know fast if I’m not managing recoil correctly.... that’s a 15 pound 6.5cm. Not close to 8lb magnums we see on here very often.

I think if more people shot their hunting rifles enough to actually learn them from multiple positions, under time; ultralight rifles wouldn’t be as popular as they are. Too many hunters out there taking box data, having a custom turret cut, plinking a few big plates off the bench and think they are good to go.

Light rifles can certainly be shot, I just don’t think most are putting in the time off the bench to do so. I know I certainly have not.

Iv drank the form koolaid, started shooting PRS and much more positional and less prone And bench shooting. I sold my light magnums, and told myself one day if my effective range determines I need a magnum cartridge, that I’ll cross that road when the time comes. Until then I’ll continue to refine my skills with what I can afford to shoot.

Great post. All true.