SFP is BETTER than FFP for LR Hunting... Change My Mind

[solarshooter]

True. When I read this line of his post below:

I thought "he doesn't get it". And then I read the rest of it and got the impression he doesn't want to get it.

I do get that if we want to stay in angles we can stay in angles. The intuition for length on target was just that, and only applies should you ever want to translate length on target to angle. I really do want to know more about the inherent benefits of mils. I've learned alot in this thread as a result.

 

[id_jon]

For 300-600 yd:

For my 280 AI: using 0.1 mil per 20 yards puts me off by 0.6 mil @ 600; using 0.1 mil per 10 yards puts me off by 0.4 mil @ 600 yards. This cartridge kind of falls in between the two. Would work well using 0.1 mil per 15 yards but the math gets tricky.

For my 6 Creed: Using 0.1 mil per 20 yards puts me off by 0.7 mil @ 600 yards. Using 0.1 mil per 10 yards puts me off by 0.8 mil @ 600 yards. Maybe my math is off? But for my MV and environmentals I could not seem to get that formula to work.

My guess is that using a 200 yard zero is a significant factor here.

 

[BULLBLASTER]

Is all of this talk of wind brackets and math any easier than using a rangefinder that gives correction? In a second i can see my elevation adjustment and a 5 mph 90 degree wind value. From there it is just scaling that wind value to what i think actual conditions are. Moa or mil just dial to what the rangefinder says and shoot.

 

[solarshooter]

Yes. But that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t, or that you can’t give angular corrections from it.




? The shooter getting into position and on target, and the spotter doing the same- at the same time takes more time? More time than what?




are confused. You are conflating multiple things to fit your desired view. So I will break them down by question. Where have I mentioned checking an app in this thread? And how does it take someone longer to setup a spotter, than it takes the shooter to setup for the shot?






What do you mean by “we”. “We” haven’t done anything. If you mean “did you all”, then yes, we have and do kill without using an app all the time- because mils and quick data.

The time is what it is. What is your question specifically about “sub 20 seconds”?



One what with what other?




There is no such thing as 100%. If you shoot enough you will miss eventually regardless of range.

It seems like it would take longer to set up a spotter than to get prone on the pack. I'm just saying that in these scenarios you described, where there wasn't time to check an app, it seems like there wouldn't be time to set up a spotter. I guess you're saying that in those scenarios, a spotter was set up in the same time it took the shooter to set up, and this helped achieve the 8/8 success rate in these situations?

I guess this really boils down to time pressure and which system works better when approximations have to be made. I can see the edge for mils in this case for both wind and drop.

BUT, should we be taking rushed shots at long range without calculating a precise firing solution? It's like the one small piece of the puzzle we can control, and every little bit of error compounds throughout the process.

 

[id_jon]

It seems like it would take longer to set up a spotter than to get prone on the pack. I'm just saying that in these scenarios you described, where there wasn't time to check an app, it seems like there wouldn't be time to set up a spotter. I guess you're saying that in those scenarios, a spotter was set up in the same time it took the shooter to set up, and this helped achieve the 8/8 success rate in these situations?

I guess this really boils down to time pressure and which system works better when approximations have to be made. I can see the edge for mils in this case for both wind and drop.

BUT, should we be taking rushed shots at long range without calculating a precise firing solution? It's like the one small piece of the puzzle we can control, and every little bit of error compounds throughout the process.

Two hunters already setup glassing, one on spotter already. Animal walks out in clearing, stopping for a second, but its clear that it's heading for the timber on the other side. Shooter quickly sets up, spotter ranges and then gets back on the spotter, shooter shoots.

That is the scenario I am imagining.

 

[solarshooter]

Say you've got a 5 MPH (1/4 MOA) gun and a 5 MPH (0.1 mil) gun. 500 yards 8 MPH wind. MOA, my brain would say "5*.25 = 1.25. 1.25* 1.6 = uhh eff lemme think.." With Mils my brain says "0.5*1.6= hold 0.8".

Under time pressure it is significantly easier. There is nothing about MOA's correlation to inches that would help me make hits under time pressure better to offset that.

I would do 5*1.5 =~ 8 clicks, hold 2moa. Don't need to convert to MOA till the end.

 

[JohnJohnson]

Mil vs moa is interesting, pretty much the only advantages I see are dividing by 10 rather than 4

And having to dial fewer "clicks" on your scope to get to the same angular adjustment since MRAD is a slightly coarser adjustment. Plus all of the other math related stuff people have been mentioning but I'll let them handle that part of it.

 

[jamesmc8]

My guess is that using a 200 yard zero is a significant factor here.

No, the relative ratio of adjustment from 300-600 yards is the same regardless of zero range.

I enjoy these discussions, I always learn something new. Good to look critically at the systems we use objectively as tools to accomplish a task. I also remain open to changing systems if there is a compelling argument that is backed by data.

 

[solarshooter]

Two hunters already setup glassing, one on spotter already. Animal walks out in clearing, stopping for a second, but its clear that it's heading for the timber on the other side. Shooter quickly sets up, spotter ranges and then gets back on the spotter, shooter shoots.

That is the scenario I am imagining.

If I am already set up prone on my pack, rifle out, watching a specific area, I have already ranged several features in it, run AB, and dialed my scope. In his scenario, he specifically describes where there was no time to consult an app. To me this means like sub 1 minute to seeing the animal and taking the shot. Maybe 2 mins. Most people I know carry their very valuable spotter in a case inside their pack. And the tripod is strapped to their pack. To get that all out, set up, positioned, seated, attached, zoomed, focused, etc faster than it takes me to get in position, range, and glance at my drop card or get my phone out and put some numbers in AB seems unrealistic.

 

[solarshooter]

And having to dial fewer "clicks" on your scope to get to the same angular adjustment since MRAD is a slightly coarser adjustment. Plus all of the other math related stuff people have been mentioning but I'll let them handle that part of it.

Fewer clicks, but likely same angular throw, since it's likely the same erector assembly. I don't count clicks, I read the scale on the turret, and spinning it fast enough has never been a problem I've noticed.

 

[JohnJohnson]

Fewer clicks, but likely same angular throw

I can't speak to all scope models but that's not the case with the ones I have. For instance my G3 Razor is 10 MRAD per turn and the same scope in MOA is 25 MOA per turn. The elevation adjustment at 1000 yards for my 16.5" 6.5CM is 9.7 MRAD / 33.4 MOA. So in MRAD it's just under one revolution and in MOA it's about 1.3 revolutions if my very sleepy mental math is right.

 

[PathFinder]

Things nobody does in real life:

• Check what power their scope is on while shooting at animals
• Convert their perfectly good reticle units to inches/feet and back
• Count clicks
• Dial wind
• Leave their spotter and tripod in their pack while glassing

The spotter is on the animal before the rifle is. The sequence (with 2 guys) typically goes as follows:

• One guy finds the animal. Usually in binos. Describes location to 2nd guy.
• 2nd guy on the animal with binos, 1st guy ranges animal.
• Optional: Put spotting scope on animal if distance is far (over 600) or if needed for judging. One guy stays on the animal while swapping optics over.
• Shooter sets up rifle. Position may already be partially or entirely set. Elevation may be dialed, maybe not. This is occurring while the spotter keeps track of the animal.
• Spotter uses binos or spotter, depending on distance, to watch the animal and give correction.

Once upon a time I tried to justify a SFP MOA scope. Couldn't do it objectively. The only advantage is reticle visibility at low power but properly designed reticles negate that advantage.

 

[doty_soty]

SFP is better than FFP for most things outside of quickly adjustments at long range.

 

[solarshooter]

For kicks, I ran the "quick drop rule" with the "good gun" modifier (I'm shooting BC 0.656 at 2830fps) and got the following:


It works really really well beyond about 450yds (<10% error). I zero at 100, and typically carry dialed to 200 to enable "snapshots" out to that range. My MER is 600yds. So this rule is really only helpful for about 1/3 of the ranges I would engage targets at and need to dial. Between 200 and 450 there is too much error for me to tolerate, like 1-6x the error of my rifle accuracy cone.

 

[JohnJohnson]

SFP is better than FFP for most things outside of quickly adjustments at long range.

The OP couldn't seem to build a case for this that held any water but maybe you can. What areas is SFP better in?

 

[Formidilosus]

It seems like it would take longer to set up a spotter than to get prone on the pack. I'm just saying that in these scenarios you described, where there wasn't time to check an app, it seems like there wouldn't be time to set up a spotter. I guess you're saying that in those scenarios, a spotter was set up in the same time it took the shooter to set up,

and this helped achieve the 8/8 success rate in these situations?

Two separate things you are asking- does a spotter help with hit rates, and how much time does it take to setup a spotter/bino? First question- a competent spotter makes a dramatic difference for the vast- vast, majority of shooters, and at times makes a dramatic difference for the very best of shooters.
Second- it takes about 7-8 seconds to get pack off and spotter pulled out and set up for someone competent. About 12-14 on average if the spotter or binos are not attached together already.

I guess this really boils down to time pressure and which system works better when approximations have to be made. I can see the edge for mils in this case for both wind and drop.

It’s western spot and stalk hunting. Time is factor for a high percentage of opportunities.

BUT, should we be taking rushed shots at long range without calculating a precise firing solution? It's like the one small piece of the puzzle we can control, and every little bit of error compounds throughout the process.

It’s a probability of success scenario, and it isn’t just at “long range”. 300-400 yard shots in the field on animals is not nearly as easy as most try to state, and speed or lack thereof has a noticeable and measurable impact on success. With that, the more skilled one is, the longer the range and shorter the time it takes for the same hit rate

 

[wind gypsy]

I would do 5*1.5 =~ 8 clicks, hold 2moa. Don't need to convert to MOA till the end.

yeah, that'd make a lot more sense haha!

 

[doty_soty]

The OP couldn't seem to build a case for this that held any water but maybe you can. What areas is SFP better in?

Being visible at the low end, not being too thick at the high end. You lose the ability to mil at sub-maximum power, but unless you have a ton of magnification you should probably be milling at the top end anyway.

 

[Formidilosus]

For kicks, I ran the "quick drop rule" with the "good gun" modifier (I'm shooting BC 0.656 at 2830fps) and got the following:
View attachment 651888

It works really really well beyond about 450yds (<10% error). I zero at 100, and typically carry dialed to 200 to enable "snapshots" out to that range. My MER is 600yds. So this rule is really only helpful for about 1/3 of the ranges I would engage targets at and need to dial. Between 200 and 450 there is too much error for me to tolerate, like 1-6x the error of my rifle accuracy cone.

Correction factor of .4 mils Starting at 400 yards. At 400 yards to 600 yards take .4 off the average gun.

572 yards- base a 3.7. Take .4 off 3.7= 3.3 mils elevation.

 

[JohnJohnson]

Being visible at the low end, not being too thick at the high end. You lose the ability to mil at sub-maximum power, but unless you have a ton of magnification you should probably be milling at the top end anyway.

So your original statement saying "SFP is better than FFP for most things" was really only about reticle visibility?