Second guessing my short DL arrow build

[Sapcut]

If shooting suffers then that it the shooters problem that they can remedy just like shooting any other setup. No question an expandable would not have penetrated shoulder like you speak happened here. And of course no one is saying shoot a heavier more lethal setup AND disregard shooting efficiency. Why is that always the assumption? Do both. It can be done easily IF a bowholder wanted to. It's just that speed is still the most attractive item to most bowhunters.

 

[hibernation]

For another reference point, saw a 50#, 24" draw length setup put an FMJ with kudu broadhead through both sides of an elk last fall. Hung up just before the fletching. Elk went maybe 75 yards and we heard the crash from it tipping over, maybe 60 seconds after the shot.

Your setup sounds fine. Stick to the fundamentals, don't overthink it, and have the patience to wait for a good shot opportunity.

 

[Billy Goat]

If shooting suffers then that it the shooters problem that they can remedy just like shooting any other setup. No question an expandable would not have penetrated shoulder like you speak happened here. And of course no one is saying shoot a heavier more lethal setup AND disregard shooting efficiency. Why is that always the assumption? Do both. It can be done easily IF a bowholder wanted to. It's just that speed is still the most attractive item to most bowhunters.

That wasn't a mechanical in the shoulder, that's a single bevel two blade head.

Speed ain't everything but too slow and yardage becomes critical. There's a happy medium. Most, but not all will increase poundage as they are chasing more energy. That's what becomes detrimental to their shooting. You are going to shoot same poundage, with same holding weight as accurately no matter what the arrow weight is, assuming it's same bow. Go up 10# on a hunting bow and many will see accuracy suffer.

 

[Sapcut]

That wasn't a mechanical in the shoulder, that's a single bevel two blade head.

I’m saying that without a doubt before ever leaving the tent, we know the expandable isn’t vital when hitting the shoulder. Much less chance than most any other broadhead. And a good single bevel will also kill anything in the gut..... which is by far my least favorite shot placement on anything.

 

[Sapcut]

Speed ain't everything but too slow and yardage becomes critical.

I have never heard of a compound shooter with an arrow too slow for penetrating an animal. Neither have I heard of an arrow that doesn’t penetrate due to being too heavy.

Regarding the too light and too heavy ends of the spectrum, it is and has been for many decades the light end that hunters are without a doubt the closest too. Heavy weight tackle is not the problem. It’s hunters and bow pullers want what is easy and fast.

 

[Billy Goat]

I’m saying that without a doubt before ever leaving the tent, we know the expandable isn’t vital when hitting the shoulder. Much less chance than most any other broadhead. And a good single bevel will also kill anything in the gut..... which is by far my least favorite shot placement on anything.

That was my point, a small broadhead will kill in the guts, but which leaves a better trail? A narrow slit or a big hole?

I'm talking about recovery, both are lethal. One is generally easier to track.

I have had and seen very difficult blood trails from good shots with two blade heads, bleeders help a lot.

I have never heard of a compound shooter with an arrow too slow for penetrating an animal. Neither have I heard of an arrow that doesn’t penetrate due to being too heavy.

Regarding the too light and too heavy ends of the spectrum, it is and has been for many decades the light end that hunters are without a doubt the closest too. Heavy weight tackle is not the problem. It’s hunters and bow pullers want what is easy and fast.

Has nothing to do with penetration, I said yardage becomes critical because of drop. Take an elk that is coming in to a calling sequence, you ranged it at 38 yards, it moved from where you thought you were going to take the shot. It's now at 44-48 yards. With a bow shooting 250 fps you really need to know if it's 44 or 48. Shooting 280 it's not as critical, has nothing to do with penetration and everything to do with being able to make the shot. I'd prefer to have a setup that I know I can still make the shot versus having to pass it.

 

[Sapcut]

I get the distance judging aspect and how mistakes can be made, then relying on a fast and flat shooting arrow to help compensate for said mistake. In your example above, I personally would be more concerned with what the arrow was going to do when it got to the elk, not just making it to the elk and would not take such a long shot. Both objectives can be reached. I think the reason 45-50+ yard shots are even taken is because the hunter knows he has a fast flat arrow knocked that will physically reach the animal.....regardless of how quick the the arrow likes to stop upon resistance for the same reason it is fast and flat.....light weight.

 

[Billy Goat]

So a 490+ grain shaft at 285 fps isn't going to penetrate?


There's more than one elk I wouldn't have gotten if my bow was slower, penetration hasn't been an issue.

Should I go to 655 grain @ 250 fps? That might or might not shoot thru the shoulder.

 

[Reburn]

Highjack question (TS I'll edit if this question is out of line), does anyone get concerned when the arrows are at different angles like the last one in the op? His target is filled with material so I get that they could deflect on impact or whatever, but I get shots like that with a foam style target and no wind from time to time.

With bags like he is shooting nah man the filling moves around.

With foam like a rinehart or matrix. Eh some concern if its frequent. Its likely due to bad form. I judge based on the penetration. When I torque the bow sometimes it will do that and have reduced pentration. Sometimes an arrow will hit a spot I hit with a broad head though and "follow the vein"

See that’s just the point and problem, IMO. Everyone knows that basically any bow with any arrow will kill any animal if the shot is exactly perfect.

What about doing real tangible things that can be done to increase and maximize chances of turning the “bad shot placement” into a recovered animal? That seems to not be too concerning to most bow hunters.

Exactly what would you suggest the OP does with his limited draw length and poundage? What should he do to make his setup more lethal?

 

[Sapcut]

Exactly what would you suggest the OP does with his limited draw length and poundage? What should he do to make his setup more lethal?

Increase poundage to 70 or more by working at it and getting stronger, build arrow strategically (strong, stainless, straight edge single bevel and external footing for strength and stiffen arrow if needed), increasing arrow weight another 150-200+ grains as well as increasing FOC as much as possible as the arrow build dictates when tuning. And keep shots close. I think this, in general, leaves very little to nothing on the table when maximizing the arrow's efficiency to penetrate, kill and recover any animal. Like anything, it's nothing guaranteed, its maximizing your chances. That concept is what I would suggest.

 

[Reburn]

Increase poundage to 70 or more by working at it and getting stronger, build arrow strategically (strong, stainless, straight edge single bevel and external footing for strength and stiffen arrow if needed), increasing arrow weight another 150-200+ grains as well as increasing FOC as much as possible as the arrow build dictates when tuning. And keep shots close. I think this, in general, leaves very little to nothing on the table when maximizing the arrow's efficiency to penetrate, kill and recover any animal. Like anything, it's nothing guaranteed, its maximizing your chances. That concept is what I would suggest.

So this is a yes or no question as I'm just repeating what your saying for verification.

Your suggesting he shoot a 583-633 grain arrow with a 24.5" draw at 70 lbs. With a FOC over 15% and a speed oof 200 FPS or maybe even less?

 

[Sapcut]

No.

70 or more, arrow length more than 24.5” draw, don’t know what speed would be but it would be enough.

That is what I would do because my personal specific objective would be to maximize my chances of getting thru any bone necessary to get to vitals..... and, btw, at the same time penetrating everything else, and more, that a lighter faster arrow would.

What pretty much has to be given up is the desire to see a light flat trajectory arrow reach a target at 50 yards as it sheds even more momentum within that 50 yards of travel.

 

[Billy Goat]

I'll not continue to drag this thread down, I'll just say that I think the op is at the point that he is going to be maximizing his setup. His going to 500 grain over his 430 grain shaft isn't going to make a significant difference in penetration, however it's going to sacrifice another 23-24 fps. In a situation like elk hunting where it's frequently dynamic I'd want that extra bit of forgiveness on yardage personally as I think he will be adequate on his penetration.

Biggest piece of the puzzle is what's on the front of the arrow, not the weight or foc. He has already selected a good cut on contact broadhead. That is what is going to have more effect on penetration.

 

[hibernation]

Most, but not all will increase poundage as they are chasing more energy. That's what becomes detrimental to their shooting.

Increase poundage to 70 or more by working at it and getting stronger

I'll throw my two cents in here. Accuracy aside, I think a lot of people blow good opportunities because they're too stubborn to admit they're pulling too much weight. Even at the range, I always see people struggling not to sky draw because their limbs are cranked down to the max - if you can't pull it when you're warm and relaxed, how are you going to do the same when you've been sitting or stalking for hours, your muscles are cold and cramped, and you've got an animal staring down on your position?

In my experience, this leads to a few different bad outcomes: either it runs off when it spots your draw, or it goes on high alert and starts to leave the area. The latter leads to rushed shots on nervous animals, both of which make for pretty bad shot placement. If the hunter knows he can't draw his bow smoothly, maybe he draws way too early - now he's struggling to hold it while the animal's coming in, again leading to bad shots.

I can shoot 70# fine at the range, but finally had to admit that I hunt much better when it's around 62#. That's still plenty of speed and oomph, but now I can draw easy and smooth from any position without moving my bow a hair, every time. That helps make sure that what I'm shooting is completely unaware, which IMO is key to good shot placement.

 

[Sapcut]

I agree with your above statement but surely you did infer from my statement you quoted above to suggest a hunter shoot more than he could handle ??

What I see more than not is a hunter unwilling to work and get stronger at using a more powerful weapon. Instead go to a less powerful bow weight because it is the easy option.

 

[ElkNut1]

Great points on arrow weight by all. I too enjoy the speed of an arrow to compensate for my error in yardage. (hey it happens-grin) BUT, I also want an FOC of 15-16%. I have found that my penetration value is off the charts with this foc. Thing is I can achieve this in a 425 grain arrow; this means I have the best of both worlds, speed & ultimate penetration. I shoot 65# 27-1/2" draw & blow through most bulls.

Kudos to you guys trying to assist guys to not take arrow weight & broadhead choice for granted.

ElkNut

 

[Huntnfish89]

Thank you everyone for all the insight!

Like I stated early on, this is my first year into archery and have been focusing on form before I increase any weight. Like Sapcut mentioned, I think that it would be doing myself a disservice if I simply keep my current draw weight for no other reason than currently shooting it well. Like many other things, I view archery as a process of gradual progress, and learning; getting stronger would be a significant part of that. That all being said, I am not too proud to ignore my limitations. Say I can pull 70# back ok but it is a struggle, then I will back it down to the point that I am comfortable with.

I guess my initial question was to make sure that I am maximizing my set up to balance speed and performance on an animal. I think that if I go any higher, my pin gaps would spread out too much, and lighter and I feel that it would be faster, but be lacking in the KE department.

 

[gelton]

I will just add that hunting Elk is NOT like hunting whitetail. If in a stand with a feeder and shooting at known yardages, get all the arrow weight and FOC you can handle. I am certain it will help with penetration.

But put yourself on the ground and at eye level with a moving target at potential long-range and speed is your friend. Not to say you should go too light, but too heavy is almost certainly going to lead to less than lethal shots, or better, misses due to not shooting the correct yardage.

Ask me how I know - I have been down the route of heavy arrows and high foc.