Seating depth testing - good ES/SD, poor accuracy?

[AirborneEScouter]

i only tested from the lands to 0.015” out and could have continued, maybe still should. Anyone see decent spreads/deviation but can’t get the bullets to group? Having a heck of a time with hornady 212 eldx. Weight sorted the bullets too so a little puzzled.

 

[RonnieMilsurp]

How long are you waiting between shots? Were the Berger loads shot first then the ELD-X after? Wondering about barrel heat/expansion causing upward stringing. Is the barrel floated?

And what is your shooting form? Do you grip the forend well or are you shooting crossed-arm? With lighter sporter barrels in magnums, crossed-arm shooting can allow uncontrolled recoil, causing shots to go up and to the right (for right handers).

Also, any pressure signs on the ELD-X?

 

[Ram94]

I would recommend you keep messing with the seating depth. 15 thousandths off the lands is nothing. In my experience, the eldx likes a bit of jump.

 

[tdot]

I've always been a big believer in following the groups on the paper, not the ES/SD. IMO chasing ES/SD is the wrong metric to be chasing. Many of my best loads have an ES of 20-30, yet still print sub 0.5moa groups. I tested a load today that had an ES of 4fps over 5 shots, yet printed a 1.25MOA group. Statistics aren't everything.

 

[TN VOL]

What grouping made you choose 77gr for the eldx? I only mess with seating depth after I’ve found the most accurate/consistent charge weight from a ladder test.
If that 5.4 SD load was your best from a ladder test, then I would back out to 0.025 off and work back to 0.040. I’ve had the best results from Barnes with a longer jump. No experience with eldx.

 

[AirborneEScouter]

The eldx were shot after the Berger - I suppose barrel heat could have been a factor but I was fairly slow and methodical shooting the 26 rounds over about an hour and a half or so. I never let the barrel get very hot. It’s also a proof sendero and not a lighter profile. Possible heat was an issue but I just don’t feel like it was a major influence.

The powder charge weights were based on previous testing where I found single digit ES
/SD. The eldx in prior tests were always seated .010 off and I’d usually get less than .75moa groups with mostly similar ES/SD as I was shooting today so this is a bit of a head scratcher. I did use the gm215 primers today and previous eldx loads were used with regular 215 primers so one possible factor was using a different primer but not sure how that would affect accuracy with velocities staying consistent all other things equal.

I haven’t been too sure of using the 215s to hunt with (especially for deer) and was hoping I could get a good load for the 212s but I’m also running out of time before the Kansas rifle season opens. Will definitely try seating further back, and on a fresh/cool barrel as well, otherwise may be giving the Berger’s a go (and running low on those too ). Appreciate the feedback, will see if I can’t find something that works soon

 

[tdhanses]

The 215’s are deadly on elk, pretty sure they’ll do on a deer.

 

[Wrench]

The 215 at anything north of 1800ish fps are simply magical killers. I would attempt to avoid ending in the offside shoulder unless it's the super trophy you dream of.

It ain't gonna live if you lung it.

 

[scooter25]

Load up groups 3 cartridges starting at your .015 measurement and seat .003 deeper for each group. I would try 5-7 groups and see how they group. Most likely you will find 2-3 that group really well then choose the longest one.
When I am developing loads I don't even pay attention to the group size while getting the charge weight down. Once I get my velocity and ES where I want them then I use seating depth to tune my group size

 

[Harvey_NW]

Jump them suckers. I start at .050" if I can and work back from there now.

 

[tdhanses]

Jump them suckers. I start at .050" if I can and work back from there now.

I’d even jump the bergers, i have best results at .09.

 

[wapitibob]

I haven’t been too sure of using the 215s to hunt with (especially for deer) and was hoping I could get a good load for the 212s but I’m also running out of time before the Kansas rifle season opens. Will definitely try seating further back, and on a fresh/cool barrel as well, otherwise may be giving the Berger’s a go (and running low on those too ). Appreciate the feedback, will see if I can’t find something that works soon

Broz has been on hundreds of Elk kills with 215's. Let it eat.

google broz 215 berger

 

[ckrhtr]

ES/SD is not the end all be all, impacts on paper are the true judge on how a load performs. Chronographs especially cheaper models can be very unreliable. I would load the Bergers with the best group and see how it does at 600 yds. Bergers work good as long as you understand the limitations and what the bullet was designed for, make sure that the tips are open and put it through the rib cage.

 

[AirborneEScouter]

Thanks guys for the replies, reading elsewhere I've noticed some comments about a correlation between consistency/accuracy and lightly compressed charges, or at least less void between bullet and powder. Seating my bullets in the tests noted above, there's still plenty of room between the bullet and powder so seating further in just might do the trick, we'll see.

Also, I am totally aware of the Berger 215 hunting bullet fan club. I am sure they work as good as everyone says they do, I've just never tried them. My bigger concern, and this applies to the 212 gr ELDX as well, is shooting a deer that's a third the size of an elk with these big bullets which is why I'm more inclined to use the ELDX. However, I am willing to have faith with the bergers especially since I know they shoot well in my rifle.

Thanks for the advice! I will put it all to use!

 

[tdhanses]

Thanks guys for the replies, reading elsewhere I've noticed some comments about a correlation between consistency/accuracy and lightly compressed charges, or at least less void between bullet and powder. Seating my bullets in the tests noted above, there's still plenty of room between the bullet and powder so seating further in just might do the trick, we'll see.

Also, I am totally aware of the Berger 215 hunting bullet fan club. I am sure they work as good as everyone says they do, I've just never tried them. My bigger concern, and this applies to the 212 gr ELDX as well, is shooting a deer that's a third the size of an elk with these big bullets which is why I'm more inclined to use the ELDX. However, I am willing to have faith with the bergers especially since I know they shoot well in my rifle.

Thanks for the advice! I will put it all to use!

Have you used the 212 eldx on game then?

 

[AirborneEScouter]

I haven’t personally used the 212 but have a buddy who’s used it on mule deer and it’s been fine. For the record, I’m not afraid of using the 215, the 212 or any other bullet, I’ve just always used smaller grain bullets and just felt more comfortable with the eldx but I am going with what I can get the most consistently accurate at this point.

For those of you still with me, I may have found an issue in my reloading process. I was in the midst of loading earlier and wanted to chamber a few of my rounds to see if the barrel/lands would leave any impression on my rounds loaded “at the lands” because I was having minor variations using my hornady oal gauge/comparator tool to find seating depth at the lands. Low and behold I found that a few of my loaded rounds were seating another 6-8 thousandths after chambering (ie I was measuring CBTO of 2.886-2.888, seating the bullet at 2.888 and after chambering and remeasuring, some of the rounds would come out at 2.880). This made me immediately think my neck tension wasn’t consistent but I just don’t know how. I’m annealing after every reload (lapua brass), using a Redding type s bushing die and am measuring the necks before and after sizing and it seems I’ve got the right consistency there, the only other variable is I’m using imperial dry lube on the inside of the necks applied with the ceramic beads. My thought is it’s possible the graphite (or whatever it is) is not being evenly applied and maybe in instances there’s too much. I’m starting to wonder if I should just start fresh without the neck lube now.

Damn all these variables!

 

[Harvey_NW]

Damn all these variables!

My .02, run your sized necks over an expander ball or mandrel for consistency. Bushing dies are awesome, but if you don't turn necks it's theorized that can provide inconsistent and non-concentric pressure.

Ditch the lube. Just don't remove the carbon layer inside the neck, hit it with a nylon brush only. The carbon layer acts as a surface uniformer/lube.

And again, jump them suckers. Some big time shooters have gathered a lot of data proving some of the most forgiving accuracy windows being .050"+ off the lands. I've had really good luck not wasting components after I got over the whole staying close to the lands mentality.

 

[tdhanses]

I’ve had that issue and what i found is I was only really doing a 95% resize, I now run each brass through the FL sizer twice, just takes an extra second and also make sure you fully bottom the press out. I lube my necks and that isn’t your issue.

And jump those suckers, don’t fall into the close to lands old school thought process, Berger has a great article on how to load for their vld bullets, I’ll see if I can find it, been a few years.

 

[tdhanses]

Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle

VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifle.

bergerbullets.com

 

[ahard.270]

I haven’t personally used the 212 but have a buddy who’s used it on mule deer and it’s been fine. For the record, I’m not afraid of using the 215, the 212 or any other bullet, I’ve just always used smaller grain bullets and just felt more comfortable with the eldx but I am going with what I can get the most consistently accurate at this point.

For those of you still with me, I may have found an issue in my reloading process. I was in the midst of loading earlier and wanted to chamber a few of my rounds to see if the barrel/lands would leave any impression on my rounds loaded “at the lands” because I was having minor variations using my hornady oal gauge/comparator tool to find seating depth at the lands. Low and behold I found that a few of my loaded rounds were seating another 6-8 thousandths after chambering (ie I was measuring CBTO of 2.886-2.888, seating the bullet at 2.888 and after chambering and remeasuring, some of the rounds would come out at 2.880). This made me immediately think my neck tension wasn’t consistent but I just don’t know how. I’m annealing after every reload (lapua brass), using a Redding type s bushing die and am measuring the necks before and after sizing and it seems I’ve got the right consistency there, the only other variable is I’m using imperial dry lube on the inside of the necks applied with the ceramic beads. My thought is it’s possible the graphite (or whatever it is) is not being evenly applied and maybe in instances there’s too much. I’m starting to wonder if I should just start fresh without the neck lube now.

Damn all these variables!

I’ve found the best way to determine distance to the lands is to polish a bullet with 00 steel wool and close the bolt once or twice. If anything is touching you will be able to see it.