Scope mounting to maintain zero

[Wrench]

The amount of torque has some variables and should not be blanket statement referenced.

Pitch makes a huge difference. A 48tpi will apply more clamping force with a given torque input than a 40tpi.

Materials make a difference too. Sako screws are made of butter and stretch around the time you touch them. Stainless screws in stainless rings can have frictional losses greater than those in steel.

 

[Skydog]

The amount of torque has some variables and should not be blanket statement referenced.

Pitch makes a huge difference. A 48tpi will apply more clamping force with a given torque input than a 40tpi.

Materials make a difference too. Sako screws are made of butter and stretch around the time you touch them. Stainless screws in stainless rings can have frictional losses greater than those in steel.

Not sure if this was a direct response to my previous post?

I assume I will just be following the manufacturers' recommended torque specs for scope installation, action screws, etc. Or if manufacturer recommendations are not available or incorrect, I will be looking for guidance here.

My question was about what is a decent torque wrench to purchase for occasional use.

 

[freddyG]

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the pros/cons of the wet mounting concept mentioned earlier. Here is a link to a post on snipershide this week... apparently by the guy who started it all, and who apparently is involved in some very serious drop testing experiments. Anyone who is smarter than me decipher what is best practices moving forward?

Wet Mounting Scope Mounts - Where It All Started

I figure since Hakan did a video interview about it, maybe it’s time to bring all the testing to the light. In a nutshell, I experienced a scope zero shift in 2015 from the rifle falling over in the hotel room at the Hide Cup. When i returned home and started testing to find the origin of the...

www.snipershide.com

There has to be another variable to that guys zero shifts. I don’t have zero shifts using dry pic rails, and Nightforce rings/scopes. Ever.

You have to remember that parts are machined to different tolerances. Many are simply manufactured to “good enough”.

 

[Formidilosus]

So, you don't use a torque wrench (e.g. Fix It Sticks, Wheeler Fat Wrench, etc.)?

Being much less experienced at scope installation, I think I would definitely need to use a torque wrench to ensure that I get the in-lbs correct (or at least as close as possible). I'm not one who is frequently installing scopes or tinkering with my rifle, but I would like to have a decent torque wrench for scope rings and action screws. Can you recommend a good one? Is the Fat Wrench good to go? I see it recommended a lot.

Thank you!

The FAT wrench is fine.

 

[Macintosh]

From the DNZ webpage:
Thread Locker is not needed with our mounts if it is installed correctly. DO NOT use any type of thread locker on our long ring screws. The screws we use are longer than other companies screws. We have about 20 threads holding your scope in place on each screw. If you do use thread locker, most of the time you will have to saw or break screws to get your scope out of mount. Do not send any mount back to us for exchange or refund if it has thread locker anywhere on the mount.

One of the last times this came up I contacted several manufacturers to ask about their stance on threadlocker. In ALL cases these said threadlocker was fine to use and would not cause a problem, that they either remain silent or recommend against it ONLY because customers slather stuff in loctite and then complain about “gunk” OR they return stuff in un-sellable condition. In their words it was more of a customer service convenience than a functional recommendation. DNZ was not one if the companies I contacted, but the above sounds like they are coming at it at least in part from a similar direction.

 

[Macintosh]

The snipers hide thread linked above is interesting. Basically says that some dude connected to major manufacturers had his gun fall over and lose zero, spent years testing to figure out why, and arrived at: that it was not the scopes at all, that they found all of the mounts shift under impacts, and that lubricating the mounting clamps (not the fasters, the clamps themselves) allowed the shift to return to center, and that this fixed everything. The usual suspects over there gloating over how rokslide will lose their minds over this.

 

[Wrench]

I would just use my hand before a $50 torque screwdriver. It costs more than that to calibrate one.

I have a Bell scale type wrench and a clicker but I took Jim Borden's advice and leave it in the drawer.

 

[Skydog]

I would just use my hand before a $50 torque screwdriver. It costs more than that to calibrate one.

I have a Bell scale type wrench and a clicker but I took Jim Borden's advice and leave it in the drawer.

Can you elaborate? Are you saying to just ignore the specific torque values recommended by scope/rifle manufacturers, Form's instructions at the beginning of this thread, etc.?

If not, how do you know when you have reached a specific torque value if just using your hand?

Maybe more experienced folks know when they have reached the optimal level of torque just by "feel", but I don't.

 

[khuber84]

Regarding the wet mounting ideals:

Matt is an OG in the game of shooting things in dynamic long range situations. Been a team AI guy for a long time, many thousands of rounds down range every year in comp and training. I'd not dismiss his findings, as he doesn't BS anything. He's as real deal as anyone with credibility.

 

[freddyG]

Regarding the wet mounting ideals:

Matt is an OG in the game of shooting things in dynamic long range situations. Been a team AI guy for a long time, many thousands of rounds down range every year in comp and training. I'd not dismiss his findings, as he doesn't BS anything. He's as real deal as anyone with credibility.

He needs to try some quality mounts, and probably scopes, then he wouldn’t need to lube anything. That post on SH is about as snake oilish as it gets.

 

[Steve300xcw]

Can you elaborate? Are you saying to just ignore the specific torque values recommended by scope/rifle manufacturers, Form's instructions at the beginning of this thread, etc.?

If not, how do you know when you have reached a specific torque value if just using your hand?

Maybe more experienced folks know when they have reached the optimal level of torque just by "feel", but I don't.

He is saying a $50 torque wrench/screwdriver isnt worth a damn, and going by feel will be more accurate.....

He isnt wrong

 

[khuber84]

He needs to try some quality mounts, and probably scopes, then he wouldn’t need to lube anything. That post on SH is about as snake oilish as it gets.

Night force mounts and scopes are junk huh? I'll let him know your opinion.

 

[Sierra Hunter]

Night force mounts and scopes are junk huh? I'll let him know your opinion.

They sponsor a poacher, They may not technically be junk but ethically they are.

 

[Macintosh]

Regarding the wet mounting ideals:

Matt is an OG in the game of shooting things in dynamic long range situations. Been a team AI guy for a long time, many thousands of rounds down range every year in comp and training. I'd not dismiss his findings, as he doesn't BS anything. He's as real deal as anyone with credibility.

Who is Matt? The guy who posted on snipers hide? Have no idea who he is, but if he is connected and this is legit why did he not provide more detail on who was involved in this testing and exactly what their methods and findings were? I’m happy to trust, definitely not discounting what him or anyone says, but not without context and info. Not a lot of harm in trying except for hundreds of $ in ammo and my (priceless) time, to fix an issue I’ve personally had that as of today appears to have already been fixed without lubricating my mounts. Obviously there can be more than one problem source—it seems likely that the fact I havent done this and am not having zero shifts, while also having had past zero shifts that were solved by changing scopes, doesnt mean this guy is wrong. Im guessing if he’s as connected as he alludes to there is some legitimacy to this, but looking only at the info Ive been able to see its no less, and probably more, “snake oil” than the rokslide drop testing. That at least shows methodology and data in a transparent manner that anyone can reproduce, which has jived perfectly with my own experience where it overlaps. Bottom line Id be interested to see methodology and data…thats whats needed.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

the zero check thread is starting to develop a nice data set. i think every rifle that has demonstrated zero retention in that one specifically mentions degreasing and loctite/paint pen.

having spent a lot of times working/living on things that float, i'm extremely skeptical that allowing a scope mount to float is going to result in it magically floating back to the exact same location over and over. Getting stuff to stay put requires more friction, not less.

 

[dieselchessy]

I ASSUMED the lubrication on the rail and ring base clamp was to allow the parts to slide into a tight fitting position rather than have friction cause the fastener to reach specified torque without the pieces having slid into full lock up position.

I must have missed the part about floating and return to zero.

I think there likely is some validity to lubricant allowing the anodized aluminum or parkerized steel wedge clamp pieces to move into their ultimate lock up position without galling or deforming parts.
But, I don’t lube such wedge clamps and am blissfully unaware of experiencing issues caused by not lubricating them.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

I ASSUMED the lubrication on the rail and ring base clamp was to allow the parts to slide into a tight fitting position rather than have friction cause the fastener to reach specified torque without the pieces having slid into full lock up position.

I must have missed the part about floating and return to zero.

I think there likely is some validity to lubricant allowing the anodized aluminum or parkerized steel wedge clamp pieces to move into their ultimate lock up position without galling or deforming parts.
But, I don’t lube such wedge clamps and am blissfully unaware of experiencing issues caused by not lubricating them.

Being exposed one would think the lubricant might eventually evaporate out or wear out? I "lubed" this last mount with loctite thinking maybe I could get the best of both. Haven't shot it yet.

 

[dieselchessy]

Being exposed one would think the lubricant might eventually evaporate out or wear out? I "lubed" this last mount with loctite thinking maybe I could get the best of both. Haven't shot it yet.

I would think Loctite would provide the lube to allow the wedge pieces to slide into position. And it may dry and provide some level of bedding.

I personaly think the biggest issue with Pic rail stuff, like Arca rail stuff, is having parts from different manufacturers with different specs. Or even same manufacturer with poor specs.

How often do folks have Arca rails that dont clamp well in Arca recievers due to differing specs? I see the same with rails and rings.

I tend toward Seekins rails and rings myself. They just always seem built right and they pair up perfectly.
The Badger stuff Ive used looked top level as well.
Ive used EGW rails and Vortex rings with success as well, but fitment isnt the same and aluminum seems softer.
Also used Leupold rails and rings. Fitment seemed ok.