Scope Leveling; Instruction that ran counter to everything I thought I knew

[WaWox]

I will try to explain cant quickly. Using extremes.

The bullet leaves the barrel 1.5”-2.75” under your scope. Most rifles are set up between 1.75-2.25”. That is significant. We are not shooting laser beams. We are shooting a bullet that leaves the rifle and immediately pulled by gravity in an arch until it stops.

If you took your rifle and laid it on its side with a 90 degree cant and dialed 8.4mil on your scope for a 1000yd target. Would you expect to hit your target? Absolutely not. Even if you had perfect fundamentals and great npa you will miss your target by a lot.

Well now break the same shot with a 45deg cant…you will still miss by a ton. Now try 15deg cant. Still missing. As you get closer to 0deg can’t you will start seeing less drift on your POI.

This is just basic physics.

But let's distinguish here:
1. Scope
2. Barrel

Let's say you are a funny guy and mount your scope on the side of the rifle but perfectly level to the ground. You zero it in. Now your scope is 90deg canted to the barrel. I bet you'd still dial and shoot correctly if you could somehow get into a position behind the scope -- let's say on a shooting bench that completely locks in the rifle. Up is still up, left is still left.

Or different example. Let's say you love holding your rifle 45deg turned due to a weird injury. If you leveld scope to rifle, your windage adjustment would be 50% elevation adjustment and vice versa. You could still dial but it would be a pain -- two clicks up and one right to hit one click up, say.. -- but if you now made the reticle and scope level to the ground instead of the rifle, dialing would be normal again?

 

[KenLee]

If your shots are close range and within your MPBR, it won’t matter. Only relevant if you you are using holdovers or dialing for long range.

I don't shoot game over 400 yards anymore. Too shaky these days. Most shots 100-250 yards

 

[Molon Labe]

Is there better training than what the best military snipers in the world are getting? Maybe you should volunteer to set up better training for them then if you know it. Yeah, I don't think so.

Yes. There is much better training. Private market for sure…but they could spend some time with the AMU guys and learn a little positional stuff to shore up skill sets…

They are just limited on what they can bring into the curriculum…govt needs to approve. They just started to use tripods in the past couple years. While private market was training up in tripod use for what 10-15yrs?

They are stuck with terrible rifles…running poor ballistic performing rounds. Plus they hardly get to pull the trigger…I shoot more rounds in a week before a match than a scout sniper gets to shoot in a year. It’s wild!

Just talk to someone in ranger or scout sniper school…

 

[pacoalcracker]

fact is, nobody can stand any kind of changes to theoretical and long-standing procedures. you know, the same for the new concept of a 223 w/ 77gr TMK being just fine for game up to elk and grizzly bears. seems you get shit for disagreeing with that too. funny how the group-think works.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

But let's distinguish here:
1. Scope
2. Barrel

Let's say you are a funny guy and mount your scope on the side of the rifle but perfectly level to the ground. You zero it in. Now your scope is 90deg canted to the barrel. I bet you'd still dial and shoot correctly if you could somehow get into a position behind the scope -- let's say on a shooting bench that completely locks in the rifle. Up is still up, left is still left.

Or different example. Let's say you love holding your rifle 45deg turned due to a weird injury. If you leveld scope to rifle, your windage adjustment would be 50% elevation adjustment and vice versa. You could still dial but it would be a pain -- two clicks up and one right to hit one click up, say.. -- but if you now made the reticle and scope level to the ground instead of the rifle, dialing would be normal again?

What about windage?

 

[Molon Labe]

fact is, nobody can stand any kind of changes to theoretical and long-standing procedures. you know, the same for the new concept of a 223 w/ 77gr TMK being just fine for game up to elk and grizzly bears. seems you get shit for disagreeing with that too. funny how the group-think works.

So you are agreeing with me now? Perfect.

It’s unfortunate that they don’t change their training programs or very slowly…when new stuff comes a long. But that’s why the private market will always be ahead of our military.

BUT mil is adapting a ton of new stuff that has come around through private innovation in the past 10yrs. Slow. But it happens. I love that they can now use game changers and run rear tripod. But that is only from a couple mil trainers that shoot PRS and pushed it hard to get adapted.

223TMK for elk. Wow that’s new to me. Suppose it would probably work. Still creating a cavity wound channel. Not sure how little guy like that would do against bone but I’m sure it works awesome in lungs etc!

 

[WaWox]

What about windage?

I am not sure it matters? If the scope is level then a mil left is a mil left ?

 

[pacoalcracker]

Molon...not every sniper has the same expertise, and you do not know the instructors background to say that he is just the average Ranger sniper or one of the best, or if he has additional training outside the military. The fact that they need to use a specific cartridge doesn't mean anything since they are dialing anyways.....a 223, 308 or 50BMG or your favorite round makes zero difference. How much you shoot doesn't make a difference either so long as you get enough to be consistent and proficient. You shooting 1000 rounds a week does not make you better necessarily than a Ranger shooting 200. Seems the Rangers have no problem popping a terrorist at a mile+.

 

[Formidilosus]

Is there better training than what the best military snipers in the world are getting?

Why do you believe Ranger Regiment snipers are the best military snipers in the world?

What does the government do that is the best in the world?

 

[KenLee]

Why do you believe Ranger Regiment snipers are the best military snipers in the world?

What does the government do that is the best in the world?

Spend money recklessly.

 

[Formidilosus]

Molon...not every sniper has the same expertise, and you do not know the instructors background to say that he is just the average Ranger sniper or one of the best, or if he has additional training outside the military. The fact that they need to use a specific cartridge doesn't mean anything since they are dialing anyways.....a 223, 308 or 50BMG or your favorite round makes zero difference. How much you shoot doesn't make a difference either so long as you get enough to be consistent and proficient. You shooting 1000 rounds a week does not make you better necessarily than a Ranger shooting 200. Seems the Rangers have no problem popping a terrorist at a mile+.

How do you know they are “the best”? How do you know that they are even “good”?

 

[Formidilosus]

Molon...not every sniper has the same expertise, and you do not know the instructors background to say that he is just the average Ranger sniper or one of the best, or if he has additional training outside the military. The fact that they need to use a specific cartridge doesn't mean anything since they are dialing anyways.....a 223, 308 or 50BMG or your favorite round makes zero difference. How much you shoot doesn't make a difference either so long as you get enough to be consistent and proficient. You shooting 1000 rounds a week does not make you better necessarily than a Ranger shooting 200. Seems the Rangers have no problem popping a terrorist at a mile+.

I’m not sure that there has been a single post on this forum, with so few words, that has had as many fallacies contained as this.

 

[Kimber7man]

I just use the business card method on my SAC scope level to level the scope, then mount it on my rifle. This has worked great for me using Defiance and Kelbly actions with integral picatinny bases or a one piece picatinny base.

 

[wapitibob]

I am not sure it matters? If the scope is level then a mil left is a mil left ?

It doesn't matter, reticle is plumb and square to earth, and the barrel is in the same position. The downside is that the "natural cant of the rifle" only fits one person. The same thing applies to a bow sight and the sight bar being plum without regard to the cant of the bow.

 

[TaperPin]

I get the impression some folks think this is “new” like it was a secret or nobody knew about it and suddenly it’s a better way to shoot. It’s not new. The guys who shot canted are easy to spot, so it’s never been a secret. No single person who uses it somehow has magical powers or an understanding of marksmanship that nobody else has thought of before now. Custom stock makers have been building stocks that are essentially canted so the barrel/receiver can remain plumb and level, for 100 years - few people have been interested. Savage had that weird stock that essentially does the same thing - I have yet to see one in person because they aren’t that significant.

The single biggest evidence for or against shooting canted should be on the target - if someone who shoots a lot could shoot better canted I wouldn’t argue against it, but there is a lot of benefit to mastering the basics before trying less often used techniques. Every new odd ball idea my nephew wants to try is usually to side step the hard work required to simply get good at the basics.

 

[Cannonball]

it would be a little more difficult to measure height above bore with it canted

 

[Hnthrdr]

The scope has to be leveled to the gun and a bubble level used. This guy is wrong….Am I crazy? If it isn’t, any scope adjustments will be right or left depending on the crosshair cant in relation to the barrel. For an initial zero, it won’t matter, as soon as you start shooting longer distances it will mess stuff up.

No, I don’t think so

 

[pacoalcracker]

What does the gov't do that is the best in the world? Eradicate terrorists using the best technology, armament, soldiers and tactics. Keeps all other nations in line. Nobody really cares what that might cost.

 

[Formidilosus]

What does the gov't do that is the best in the world? Eradicate terrorists using the best technology, armament, soldiers and tactics. Keeps all other nations in line. Nobody really cares what that might cost.

Sweet baby Jesus.

 

[pacoalcracker]

Form...I get it. You are the best and everyone here says so, so I can't dispute anything you might opine on. Besides, I don't dispute most of what you opine on either.