Scientists identify a deadly toxin that's been killing birds. (Can I have regular ammo back now?)

[TheGDog]

Scientists Finally Identify a Deadly Toxin That's Been Killing Birds

Thousands of eagles and other fowl have died from a mysterious condition that attacks their nervous systems. Now, after decades of investigation, we know why.

www.wired.com

 

[Goatie]

Makes you wonder doesn’t it.

I’ve always been a bit skeptical on lead poisoning being as bad on birds after hearing that the birds they classify as dying of lead poisoning are rarely actually tested for heavy metals. They just say they exhibit the traits and die therefore it’s heavy metals and probably from lead from hunting.

Everything the birds exhibit from this bacteria/invasives mix sounds just like how they decide it’s heavy metals.

I’ll be the first one to switch to copper (though I’ve never gotten a single load to shoot in a single gun I load for) if there was ever solid data proving it was causing significant adverse affects on unintended species. Every time I come across info about the subject, the data is put forward by a group with a clear agenda to stunt or end hunting.
Thanks for posting

 

[MallardSX2]

Nothing would make me happier than to be able to hunt ducks/geese with my 2-3/4 Crow load 6 shot going at 1500 FPS...

 

[TheGDog]

I'd just LOVE to be able to take back this particular right (lead vs copper) from all the anti's here in CA.

Not particularly because I have some kind of affinity for standard bullets, but just because THOSE assholes need to experience the "take an inch" stuff they've been dishing out to us for decades, in terms of gun rights.

Plus it just never made sense, ya know? It's like..Ok... you mean to tell me for the 250 years they've been blasting away in them thar hills with strictly lead based.... and it's only *now* that you're noticing a problem and a supposed direct correlation with Condors? I never bought that.

Also... they assert that a Condor would ingest the lead bullet while consuming a carcass. Well... to them I say..."Well Gee... I can NOT imagine whoofing down a fully mushroomed Copper projectile can't be all that great for your inside either, ya know?"

 

[Doodle]

To extrapolate from this article that we should shoot whatever ammo we want is a -serious- stretch of deduction. It focuses on birds other than condors (the original “no lead” bird) and instead focuses on bacteria, not lead or copper. This means of course, that it is only tangentially related to the subject of ammunition and it’s relation to the periodic table of elements.

Further, the article states that it was happening in the south, which also precludes the conversation from turning to ammo, as we cannot reasonably say that something unique was happening with the ammo of choice down there, since nosler ballistic tips are slaying deer in virtually every corner of the country and beyond.

Don’t get me wrong, I think lead ammo has taken waaaay too much heat, but with rifle bullets like hammers I honestly couldn’t care less (shotgun loads are a different story).

Sorry if I’m coming off as nit-picky, but I see so much of this (self-serving bias in reasoning) nowadays, and it drives me a little nuts.

 

[Where's Bruce?]

Makes you wonder doesn’t it.

I’ve always been a bit skeptical on lead poisoning being as bad on birds after hearing that the birds they classify as dying of lead poisoning are rarely actually tested for heavy metals. They just say they exhibit the traits and die therefore it’s heavy metals and probably from lead from hunting.

Everything the birds exhibit from this bacteria/invasives mix sounds just like how they decide it’s heavy metals.

I’ll be the first one to switch to copper (though I’ve never gotten a single load to shoot in a single gun I load for) if there was ever solid data proving it was causing significant adverse affects on unintended species. Every time I come across info about the subject, the data is put forward by a group with a clear agenda to stunt or end hunting.
Thanks for posting

Metallurgical lab testing of "lead poisoned condors" in CA revealed the sources as flaking paint from abandoned government building in the middle of nowhere and not birdshot or bullets.

 

[Goatie]

Metallurgical lab testing of "lead poisoned condors" in CA revealed the sources as flaking paint from abandoned government building in the middle of nowhere and not birdshot or bullets.

I was mostly talking about Raptors here in minnesota that they classify as lead poisoned. I could’ve been more clear

 

[cuerro viejo]

To extrapolate from this article that we should shoot whatever ammo we want is a -serious- stretch of deduction. It focuses on birds other than condors (the original “no lead” bird) and instead focuses on bacteria, not lead or copper. This means of course, that it is only tangentially related to the subject of ammunition and it’s relation to the periodic table of elements.

Further, the article states that it was happening in the south, which also precludes the conversation from turning to ammo, as we cannot reasonably say that something unique was happening with the ammo of choice down there, since nosler ballistic tips are slaying deer in virtually every corner of the country and beyond.

Don’t get me wrong, I think lead ammo has taken waaaay too much heat, but with rifle bullets like hammers I honestly couldn’t care less (shotgun loads are a different story).

Sorry if I’m coming off as nit-picky, but I see so much of this (self-serving bias in reasoning) nowadays, and it drives me a little nuts.

Not nit-picky, The most relevant performance to lead for waterfowl or upland is Tungsten. @ $9 a shell it's not exactly cheap when national average is 6 shots per duck. Even if the wounding rate decreased to 3 shots per duck, that's a $108 duck limit, just in shells.

I remember hunting waterfowl with lead, there is no cheaper substitute equivalent to lead, tungsten is as good or better but it's price prohibited.

Back to the article, the lead ban was based on ESA protections of bald eagle and “metallic” lead being highly toxic to them, but limited to no data showing actual population effects.

End of the day ESA protects have been lifted and this needs to be revisited, with more population studies done around lead shot.

 

[Cervus]

Great article, thanks for sharing. It's really no surprise that a microbe is to blame, as we are really just starting to understand them. A great read about what we know, and what we are learning about microbes for non-scientists is the book "I Contain Multitudes" by Ed Yong. The book confirms a lot of what we as sportsman already know about the natural environment, and why "dirt don't hurt" (until it does).

 

[ODB]

If anyone’s been paying attention they’d remember that it was Cyanobacteria that caused the recent elephant die-off in Botswana.

that was blamed on all kinds of things at first…

 

[FLATHEAD]

The anti lead cult will never let go.
They really dont care about the truth.

 

[oenanthe]

Metallurgical lab testing of "lead poisoned condors" in CA revealed the sources as flaking paint from abandoned government building in the middle of nowhere and not birdshot or bullets.

Could you proviede a reference, please.

 

[Marbles]

Lead from ammunition is a well documented cause of mortality in condors, to include isotopic testing.

The University of Minnesota Raptor Center sees documented lead toxicity in 25-30 percent of eagles it treats with cases clustering around deer season.

Paragraph edited out.

Shoot what you want, but if you have to engage in intellectual self deception to feel good about it you have an issue.

As for the article, it does nothing to exonerate lead ammunition.

However, the success of Arizona's education programs to encourage the voluntary switch to copper or the safe disposal of gut piles and carcasses shot with lead compared to the apparent failure of California's ban on lead ammunition says a lot for how to best approach the issue.

 

[FLATHEAD]

I'm not buying that there are that many bullets left in GUT PILES or any other part of the animal. (Which is taken Home BTW).
After 50 years of hunting and having taken close to 100 big game
animals that just does not pass the common sense test.
I'd say most or all hunters are interested in their shot placement
and terminal performance of their bullets and recover them
if possible. And how many shots are pass through's?
I'd say quite a few.. I would also say the majority of hunters would do their darndest to keep the bullet out of the gut cavity.

 

[Marbles]

I'm not buying that there are that many bullets left in GUT PILES or any other part of the animal. (Which is taken Home BTW).
After 50 years of hunting and having taken close to 100 big game
animals that just does not pass the common sense test.
I'd say most or all hunters are interested in their shot placement
and terminal performance of their bullets and recover them
if possible. And how many shots are pass through's?
I'd say quite a few.. I would also say the majority of hunters would do their darndest to keep the bullet out of the gut cavity.

It is not whole bullets, but the frangments, you know, the weight lead bullets shed, the stuff you can see in ballistic gel, the stuff I find in meat after shooting something with an Accubond, the stuff I see on XR and CT in people who have been shot.

Obviously, you are not most hunters as you don't realize that lead bullets are usually significantly lighter once recovered.

You do realize, that gut piles is a non scientific term that refers to more than the contents of the abdominal and pelvic cavities. Most (though I know of some who like head or neck shots) hunters do their damnedist to get the bullet into the thoracic cavity, then the soupy lungs and/or torn up heart are left in the gut pile. It defies common sense to defin it as you do. Though it always amuses me when people accuse others of not carring about truth, then intentionally forget basic things to make an argument. Sorry, I don't buy that their is a hunter on Rokslide who is so ignorant as to not know that lead bullets shed wieght. I also don't buy that in close to 100 big game animals you have never left the thoracic contents in the field with the viscera (a term that actually does refer to where most hunters try to keep the bullet out of).

Also, people who hunt with lead ammo have higher blood lead levels, not massively so, but sill around double. Keep in mind, most hunters are not eating bloodshot meat, so are intentionally avoiding the most contaminated areas.

 

[BryanAustin]

must be poison from steel shot (sarcasm)

 

[FLATHEAD]

Well Marbles, your mind is made up.
My ignorant mind as well.

And Re: your amazement at my ignorance.
I too am amazed at people who apparently know
everything about everything.

 

[TheGDog]

And Re: your amazement at my ignorance.
I too am amazed at people who apparently know
everything about everything.

Thank you... maybe it's a talent, maybe it's a lifestyle. What can I say? I remember what I read. I thought everybody else did too, but experience has shown me that most normally, they don't. I think this other way of being probably stems from all those former students that never really learned the topic... they only learned to cram enough about the topic temporarily into their lobes just enough to get past some test.. then it's like it wipes away faster than it took to get in there! Some of us wanted to learn because we wanted to learn it. So we want mastery. Full understanding. Each and every time, so we can keep adding to the skillz list.

 

[Where's Bruce?]

Could you proviede a reference, please.

Read this article and then ask yourself, why are they ignoring DDT poisoning? Because it doesn't fit California's anti-gun agenda! More, there are fewer than 300 condors in the west and only 160 left in California, all suffer lead poisoning and breeding issues from it. Why is this important? Because lead is an irreversible neurotoxin meaning once in a body, it is never gonna leave. There is no hope for the poisoned condors for this reason. The laws will not (in any way) alter their shared fate.

California Condor | Hunt For Truth

California condors (Gymnogyps Californianus) are a New World vulture of the Cathartidae family. The condors have wingspans up to 9 feet, and weigh 16-31 pounds.

www.huntfortruth.org

 

[Marbles]

Read this article and then ask yourself, why are they ignoring DDT poisoning? Because it doesn't fit California's anti-gun agenda! More, there are fewer than 300 condors in the west and only 160 left in California, all suffer lead poisoning and breeding issues from it. Why is this important? Because lead is an irreversible neurotoxin meaning once in a body, it is never gonna leave. There is no hope for the poisoned condors for this reason. The laws will not (in any way) alter their shared fate.

California Condor | Hunt For Truth

California condors (Gymnogyps Californianus) are a New World vulture of the Cathartidae family. The condors have wingspans up to 9 feet, and weigh 16-31 pounds.

www.huntfortruth.org

DDT was outlawed in the 1970's, not what I would define as "ignoring." Nor can this research from 2016 be called ignoring https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23273747.2016.1173766

Lead in condor blood has been examined isotopicly and the predominant isotopes in poisoned wild birds matchs with ammunition, and not background lead exposure. Funny how "Hunt for Truth" ignored that fact, must not be hunting very hard.

Yes, lead is a cumulative toxin, but chelation therapy reduces its serum level and wild condors are currently captured, tested, and if levels are high given chelation therapy at least annually. They would certainly be better off without the exposure at all, but given current conditions repeated treatment is the only way to sustain the population.

Metallurgical lab testing of "lead poisoned condors" in CA revealed the sources as flaking paint from abandoned government building in the middle of nowhere and not birdshot or bullets.

13% of birds had isotopic lead ratios that don't fit with lead ammunition (79% of condors studied) or background exposure. Of that 13%, about a third were confirmed to be from lead based paint.

Lead poisoning and the deceptive recovery of the critically endangered California condor

Endangered species recovery programs seek to restore populations to self-sustaining levels. Nonetheless, many recovering species require continuing management to compensate for persistent threats in their environment. Judging true recovery in the face of this management is often difficult...

www.pnas.org