Sanity check first rifle config (elk, lightweight)

[SouthPaw]

Agree with some others... for your requirements of being a new shooter, wanting a lighter rifle, wanting to practice a lot, no muzzle brake, and moderate range hunting, the 6.5CM is a better starter rifle than the PRC or .270win. To consistently spot shots in the field you really want that recoil figure to be down in the 10-13 ft lbs range max, which in a lighter 6.5cm is doable with 130g bullets. A lightweight PRC or .270 is gonna land in the 18-22ish ft lbs range and be a handful.

Once you're a competent shooter, if you feel the need for more you can likely rechamber the barrel to 6.5PRC or just re-barrel.

 

[sdirks3]

Well, savage sample size of 1 but I couldn't get one to shoot better than 3". Took a trip to savage for a rebarrel with the same result. Sold it. Wasted lots of $ in ammo trying to get it to shoot. Action sucks, not a fan of the bladed accutrigger either, mediocre stock, and terrible accuracy. It was a major lose, won't own one again.

Damn - guess everyone has lemons

 

[sdirks3]

Agree with some others... for your requirements of being a new shooter, wanting a lighter rifle, wanting to practice a lot, no muzzle brake, and moderate range hunting, the 6.5CM is a better starter rifle than the PRC or .270win. To consistently spot shots in the field you really want that recoil figure to be down in the 10-13 ft lbs range max, which in a lighter 6.5cm is doable with 130g bullets. A lightweight PRC or .270 is gonna land in the 18-22ish ft lbs range and be a handful.

Once you're a competent shooter, if you feel the need for more you can likely rechamber the barrel to 6.5PRC or just re-barrel.

Yeah, I was really banking on the suppressor to get the PRC down into the 12-14 ft lbs range. But maybe it's worth just getting the creed at first. I need to crunch some more numbers on that one to see how it stacks up with heavier elk bullets, cuz the load I checked it on had it falling below 1500 ft-lbs of energy at 250 yds

 

[SouthPaw]

Yeah, I was really banking on the suppressor to get the PRC down into the 12-14 ft lbs range. But maybe it's worth just getting the creed at first. I need to crunch some more numbers on that one to see how it stacks up with heavier elk bullets, cuz the load I checked it on had it falling below 1500 ft-lbs of energy at 250 yds

I hear ya. The suppressor on the creed will be great to shoot volume, and you can ignore the 1500ft lbs myth for elk. Plenty of evidence here that you simply need to use a good bullet above impact velocities for proper upset/expansion, which takes you way past 250 yards with the creed.

Sample size of 1 but I killed an elk this year with my 6.5cm and 130g bullet at just under 600 yards and it was dead in under 6 seconds and less than 20 yards from impact. "Energy" on that impact was 1049 ft lbs.

 

[Taudisio]

Agree with some others... for your requirements of being a new shooter, wanting a lighter rifle, wanting to practice a lot, no muzzle brake, and moderate range hunting, the 6.5CM is a better starter rifle than the PRC or .270win. To consistently spot shots in the field you really want that recoil figure to be down in the 10-13 ft lbs range max, which in a lighter 6.5cm is doable with 130g bullets. A lightweight PRC or .270 is gonna land in the 18-22ish ft lbs range and be a handful.

Once you're a competent shooter, if you feel the need for more you can likely rechamber the barrel to 6.5PRC or just re-barrel.

Yes because the Creed and the PRC have the same bolt face and the creed and the 270 have the same length action.

If I recall correctly, the 143gr in the creedmoor with a 24” barrel get you to about 400 yards. Cutting inches off the barrel, cuts yards off your distance. My 18” average is 2550, 22” is 2650 just for your info rp. That is boxed ammo and not reloads which should be faster.

 

[sdirks3]

Here's a curveball for the folks thinking about recoil - there's a lefty savage timberline 280 AI I could pick up used off the classifieds for $750. Adds 2 lbs to the rifle weight and brings my total to 10 lbs, but that 1) Gives me a cool cartridge in the stable and 2) brings the recoil down to ~15 ft lbs even though I've got considerably more power just cuz of the added weight. Also saves me $700-$1k compared to the ultralights for a first rifle.

Not a big fan of signing up to carry that much extra, but might be a good option for rifle #1? Thoughts?

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Yeah, I was really banking on the suppressor to get the PRC down into the 12-14 ft lbs range. But maybe it's worth just getting the creed at first. I need to crunch some more numbers on that one to see how it stacks up with heavier elk bullets, cuz the load I checked it on had it falling below 1500 ft-lbs of energy at 250 yds

Energy is the wrong metric for bullet terminal performance. With any flavor eld bullet, what you're really looking for is 1800 fps minimum. With my 18" barrel 6.5 creed, that's 600+ yards for the 130-147 class bullets.

 

[sdirks3]

When I crunched all these numbers I was setting threshold for 1900 fps, 1500 ft lbs (elk), and 1000 ft lbs (deer) cuz I had heard mixed views on which of those mattered most. I've been hearing people saying they like the Hornady HITS formula, but I can't find an online calculator for it

 

[Taudisio]

Energy is the wrong metric for bullet terminal performance. With any flavor eld bullet, what you're really looking for is 1800 fps minimum. With my 18" barrel 6.5 creed, that's 600+ yards for the 130-147 class bullets.

This is a better way to look at it than an energy figure. I look at the research done by the manufacturer and the different levels of expansion and pick the one that looks acceptable to me in their lineup. Then I won’t shoot lower than that impact velocity. The eldx looks great at 1800 btw

 

[sdirks3]

Also just realized I've been crunching all my numbers at sea level when I usually chase elk at 10k+. Wow is that a gamechanger hahaha

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Think about the Ashby foundation. That's the mentality that dominated the main stream gun publications for the entire 20th century, and it spawned HITS and ridiculous, arbitrary ke minimums. Ke is not useful for predicting the tissue damage of bullets in general because it ignores bullet construction, the most dominate predictive factor for tissue damage.

 

[Taudisio]

Ashby is great. There is also the “ballistic studies” boys from NZ. They have been collecting data from real experiences.

 

[SouthPaw]

If I recall correctly, the 143gr in the creedmoor with a 24” barrel get you to about 400 yards.

Based on what?

 

[Taudisio]

Based on what?

The box velocity, and the figures he was looking at/for (1500 ft lbs of energy at the presumed 0ft elevation)

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Ashby is great. There is also the “ballistic studies” boys from NZ. They have been collecting data from real experiences.

so you hunt small game with a 1000 grain arrow? Ashby foundation is nonsensical lala land, much like the claims that you need a magnum, or .284, or .308, or .338 diameter bullet to kill an elk.

 

[Taudisio]

so you hunt small game with a 1000 grain arrow? Ashby foundation is nonsensical lala land, much like the claims that you need a magnum, or .284, or .308, or .338 diameter bullet to kill an elk.

I think you have to look at it as a whole picture and use it for balancing. Ashby shows that heavier and slower penetrate better. But heavier and slower hinders your shooting distance and string jumping animals. Just like the ballistic studies suggests a threshold for bullet velocity to drop an animal with a rib shot. (I can’t remember the terminology he uses). Neither are necessary to be successful and ethical, but useful information nonetheless

 

[william schmaltz]

Well, savage sample size of 1 but I couldn't get one to shoot better than 3". Took a trip to savage for a rebarrel with the same result. Sold it. Wasted lots of $ in ammo trying to get it to shoot. Action sucks, not a fan of the bladed accutrigger either, mediocre stock, and terrible accuracy. It was a major lose, won't own one again.

That's unfortunate, curious what model and barrel? My 110 axis in 7-08 with Barnes 120 ttsx is by far the most accurate rifle I own. I bought it when I was dead broke for like $400. The action on that gun is sloppy and I put in a new trigger, but I love that cheap little gun. Very ammo picky and I almost gave up on it early. I wouldn't recommend buying one over other options, but it is a shooter. I either pack that or my 110 bear hunter in 375 Ruger. That gun has a very smooth action and I personally like the accutrigger. They have both been fantastic on a budget and have killed a zoo worth of animals. I'm currently waiting somewhat impatiently to pick up a 110UL with the proof barrel in 7 PRC for my wife's moose gun.

 

[wind gypsy]

Yes because the Creed and the PRC have the same bolt face and the creed and the 270 have the same length action.

If I recall correctly, the 143gr in the creedmoor with a 24” barrel get you to about 400 yards. Cutting inches off the barrel, cuts yards off your distance. My 18” average is 2550, 22” is 2650 just for your info rp. That is boxed ammo and not reloads which should be faster.

Since he recommended a 6.5 creedmoor, his train of thought was probably on buying a nicer action (tikka) which is a little more flexible. In which case you could shoot 270 with the same action and swap bolts or open up the bolt face if you rebarelled to prc.

More of a headache but OP could buy a lefty magnum bolt face tikka and swap out the barrel with something like this: https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/6-5-prc-tikka-barrel-dies-brass.300003/ or had someone else spin on a new barrel to desired specs (PBB is one of the more economical options).

 

[Taudisio]

Since he recommended a 6.5 creedmoor, his train of thought was probably on buying a nicer action (tikka) which is a little more flexible. In which case you could shoot 270 with the same action and swap bolts or open up the bolt face if you rebarelled to prc.

More of a headache but OP could buy a lefty magnum bolt face tikka and swap out the barrel with something like this: https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/6-5-prc-tikka-barrel-dies-brass.300003/ or had someone else spin on a new barrel to desired specs (PBB is one of the more economical options).

Fair and correct! Just want to make sure the op doesn’t get a short action christensen or savage and plan on swapping it to a standard action cartridge. Tikkas are a different and fantastic beast!

 

[wind gypsy]

Or, hows this for an idea.. Buy left handed tikka 6.5 creed. Shoot it, if you decide you think 200 more FPS is gonna make you happy, you have options.

If you're happy with that barrel, you could just ream it out to 6.5x284 which is the same damn thing performance wise as a PRC just has less factory ammo support and doesn't play well with a short action (which is easily mitigated in a tikka).

Or pick up a takeoff 6.5 PRC barrel and trade or source a magnum bolt (might be tougher for lefties) but I bet you could call tikka and say you lost your bolt and buy one if you cant find a trade.

Or just pay someone to spin up a barrel that's exactly what you want. a PBB pre-fit plus tikka purchase would still be cheaper than the two guns OP is looking at.

If tikka makes 6.5x55 in leftys, there's another option that splits creedmoor/prc difference.

Lots of flexibility. All i like better than a CA or Savage, but either of them would probably work as well.