Sacrificing weapon quality for buck/herd quality and opportunity

[elkhunter505]

I agree with everyone that there are many factors impacting mule deer, with habitat being the biggest factor. We should try to address all of those factors, but I don’t think there’s any argument that hunter effectiveness would be the easiest thing to address.

100%. Definitely is a short-term solution that is easiest to apply. Whether or not it should remain long-term while habitat is being restored is a debate for another time and place. I don’t think very many people would be opposed to more and bigger deer. The people being opposed to these restrictions are the people that are likely shooting those extreme distances. Maybe I’m wrong but I think most people that are just out to get meat are not shooting extreme distances because they don’t spend as much time and effort as we do on hunting. Plenty of buddies that I have that are meat hunters are the guys pushing thickets or just wandering around looking for deer. Seems unlikely that they would be opposed to seeing more, bigger bucks even if they’re not killing then as efficiently.

Same thing as the people in NM who absolutely revolted over the removal of muzzleloader scopes. They were the select few shooting those long range muzzleloaders. I even tangentially know one of the company owners who was making the long range muzzleloaders. He sat quietly and observant in the commission meeting in our local meeting. Heard that later he was like well I’ll just have to pivot. He was a gunsmith before and remains a gunsmith now but doesn’t do as much business on the muzzleloaders anymore.

 

[Predator_SD]

They should be lumped in with the muzzleloader season. NM allows mobility impaired hunters to use them in the archery season. For example, I had a friend tear his rotator cuff one year and hunted the hunt he had already drew with a crossbow. Seems like a reasonable solution to me. I think it’s hilarious to see people taking advantage of the archery regulations to hunt with a cross bow. I’ve seen people shoot animals at 100 yards on videos on YouTube. I’m a hypocrite when it comes to long shots in the past with my bow, but I can tell you for certain there is a much much greater chance of hitting an animal with a crossbow at those distances than with a bow.

I do think we have to take a look at technology on the short-term and habitat and voluntary restraint on the long-term. How many people do you see or know that brag about killing a deer at 600 yards with a rifle? It’s a lot. We should be bragging about putting an animal down as close as we possibly could. My attitude has really changed with archery hunting over the years because I learned that I wasn’t a good hunter, I was a good shot. As I have limited my shooting distance, my harvest rate has declined as has my number of misses. I had this conversation with a buddy yesterday. I have shot a lot of animals with a rifle in the desert and not one shot has ever been over 380 yards despite having ample opportunity. At the time I couldn’t shoot past that, but I could now and still find myself shooting animals at 200/250 on average. Those shots could be made with a 4 power scope all day long. A shot at 600 though? That would be a different story with a 4-power. Seems like it should come down to voluntary restraint. I’ve had animals shot out from under me by someone that was at a far greater distance than I was. It’s only happened a couple times and obviously they didn’t know I was there, but I think that there are likely people here that have had that happen in a competitive sense, particularly those that have drawn highly coveted sheep tags or other similar tags.

Yeah, i have zero problem with someone with an injury or disability using a crossbow during a general archery season. I think it’s a great tool to keep people out there in those situations. I’m also not against someone say over 65 using them.

But when you can have an able bodied 25 yo buy a crossbow, spend a half hour zeroing the scope, then be relatively accurate to 50 yards in 15 minutes with very little desire/need to practice any further going forward? Sorry that just seems to be getting pretty far away from the essence of archery.

In my day we chose archery to increase the challenge, be more deliberate, more in tune with what’s going on around you. Archery forced you to slow down and pay attention, to learn your craft. I in no way ever thought i was entitled or somehow owed the right to fill every single tag. I was well aware i was stacking the odds in the favor of the deer and i was cool with that.

But that sorta thinking by in large seems to be changing as far as i can tell? I also think it’s a damn shame younger people are no longer seeing the value in doing hard things. The attitude seems to always be to hit that easy button. Why choose to do something the hard way. I think archery is a great way to get those people out and teach them a thing or two about slowing down and the value and satisfaction of earning something that’s going to take time and effort on your part to acclompish.

Now, i get it some couldn’t care less about all that and that’s fine they just want to fill tags as easily and effortlessly as possible. But, you’re really going to then turn around and give that person 3 tags and 5 months to fill them with that crossbow? Allow them to hunt a season just as long and with as many tags right alongside a guy who deliberately chose to use a recurve? Idk man maybe i’m just getting old but that seems to be a trend that’s only going to erode hunting in the long term for everyone. Why try to recruit more people to hunting by allowing them to use a crossbow if it’s just in the end going to erode the quality of the hunt to the point people then begin dropping out?

 

[elkhunter505]

Yeah, i have zero problem with someone with an injury or disability using a crossbow during a general archery season. I think it’s a great tool to keep people out there in those situations. I’m also not against someone say over 65 using them.

But when you can have an able bodied 25 yo buy a crossbow, spend a half hour zeroing the scope, then be relatively accurate to 50 yards in 15 minutes with very little desire/need to practice any further going forward? Sorry that just seems to be getting pretty far away from the essence of archery.

In my day we chose archery to increase the challenge, be more deliberate, more in tune with what’s going on around you. Archery forced you to slow down and pay attention, to learn your craft. I in no way ever thought i was entitled or somehow owed the right to fill every single tag. I was well aware i was stacking the odds in the favor of the deer and i was cool with that.

But that sorta thinking by in large seems to be changing as far as i can tell? I also think it’s a damn shame younger people are no longer seeing the value in doing hard things. The attitude seems to always be to hit that easy button. Why choose to do something the hard way. I think archery is a great way to get those people out and teach them a thing or two about slowing down and the value and satisfaction of earning something that’s going to take time and effort on your part to acclompish.

Now, i get it some couldn’t care less about all that and that’s fine they just want to fill tags as easily and effortlessly as possible. But, you’re really going to then turn around and give that person 3 tags and 5 months to fill them with that crossbow? Allow them to hunt a season just as long and with as many tags right alongside a guy who deliberately chose to use a recurve? Idk man maybe i’m just getting old but that seems to be a trend that’s only going to erode hunting in the long term for everyone. Why try to recruit more people to hunting by allowing them to use a crossbow if it’s just in the end going to erode the quality of the hunt to the point people then begin dropping out?

Agreed. This last year was my first year where I really got to hunt with a rifle extensively and it was almost anticlimactic. I filled every deer tag I had on the first day I hunted, other than a miss on a doe tag that I did not fill. It almost was kind of boring. The archery hunting element is more for the adventure and challenge. Since I have archery hunted since being 14, I have killed quite a few deer with a bow and each one was an absolute grind that had the type2 reward at the end. I don’t get the same feeling with rifle hunting. The thing that offsets it or will in the future is passing animals while looking for a big buck. I’ll shoot smaller animals with my bow but definitely will be holding out with my rifle.

 

[chukar_chaser]

I think it’s a good idea. Decrease success rates and let some animals grow up.

 

[WRO]

Move the season dates to 10/1-10/10, there’s not a tougher time to hunt deer imho.


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[Hnthrdr]

This may be unpopular but i think atv use while hunting should be restricted on all public like it is in wilderness areas. Guys ripping up ridgelines, spotting deer from miles away, and then making it over to that deer in a short time has to have some measurable impact on quality bucks being harvested.

Would also be in favor of some kind of restriction on optics to limit range.

Agree, the atv is probably a pipe dream but limiting rifles to iron sights seems it would limit most guys to 300 and in… there will always be outliers though, take the 1000 dollar peep sight on the “best of the west” muzzleloaders guys are still shooting 5,6,700 yards with a dang muzzy. Or straight wall cartridges only… would really limit guys.

 

[Hnthrdr]

I think it’s a good idea. Decrease success rates and let some animals grow up.

And more importantly we don’t necessarily need to cut tags (opportunity) to do so.

 

[WRO]

And more importantly we don’t necessarily need to cut tags (opportunity) to do so.

But in reality is does cut opportunity, most do not muzzleloader hunt and will more than likely just hunt a neighboring unit just moving the problem.

 

[jpmulk]

Agree. 1-4x or so, duplex reticle, no dialing, no illumination. Only problem I see with this is, like others have mentioned, this will not stop the unethical from taking pot shots they have no business taking and wounding animals.

Playing devils advocate, is this really going to have that much impact? I’d wager the vast, vast majority of animals are still taken within 400 yards.

Would be a good discussion. I can’t help but believe it could help. Especially if limited to 1x optics like a dot. That would keep most everyone within 200 yards. Would keep a lot of animals alive.

 

[Hnthrdr]

But in reality is does cut opportunity, most do not muzzleloader hunt and will more than likely just hunt a neighboring unit just moving the problem.

Probably true. I know most of us here are hunting nuts so if we could easily get a late season deer tag but had to use iron sights, a muzzleloader or bow I think everyone would jump at it… but for average joes they will probably move to another unit

 

[Hnthrdr]

T

Would be a good discussion. I can’t help but believe it could help. Especially if limited to 1x optics like a dot. That would keep most everyone within 200 yards. Would keep a lot of animals alive.

True, the difference between 600-500 and 200 or 100 is night and day, anyone who archery hunts knows the feeling of being just out of reach and being busted, with a solid center fire rifle and scope I don’t get that feeling too often…

 

[Rich M]

I'd like it for adults too, but at least for youth hunters. but to be honest, I've never used a 1x scope, I'm just assuming with good glass it would provide better shooting in low light.
I really think youth hunters should get a normal scope.

Everyone or no-one. Tired of any priviledges for anyone except wheelchairs or >80 yrs old.

I’m deaf and got 0 privileges growing up. Tell yer kids to toughen up if you have to.

 

[Andrew12gauge]

Good discussion. Anyone know what the IDFG commission decided on the SE muzzleloader proposals?

Yes to 73A no to 78


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[CMF]

Everyone or no-one. Tired of any priviledges for anyone except wheelchairs or >80 yrs old.

I’m deaf and got 0 privileges growing up. Tell yer kids to toughen up if you have to.

Ha, they're plenty tough, that bull in profile pic was my 11yo with 50 cal muzzy on day 3 after getting wapped by the scope on day 2. I just think it's beneficial to give the younger generation some advantages to keep them more engaged.