Sacrificing weapon quality for buck/herd quality and opportunity

[Shortschaf]

Herd quality will be the least of our problems if we voluntarily give the govt more tools to outlaw/limit ownership of modern firearms

 

[robby denning]

Just put a stopped deer season say for three years and give the animals time to recover perhaps.

Been tried.

Utah Elk Ridge, closed years, recovered, opened, draw odds plummeted, while quality decreased (but didn't tank). Now it's a decade plus wait and not all that good of a herd.

Utah Henry Mtns, (see above).

Closing will certainly recover deer, but who gets to say when it can/will/ever open? I know a bunch of Cali and Wa guys who'd be afraid the answer would be it might never open again.

We can do better with a steadier hand at management IMO. Closing and LQ are the easy button with big downsides.

 

[WRO]

Been tried.

Utah Elk Ridge, closed years, recovered, opened, draw odds plummeted, while quality decreased (but didn't tank). Now it's a decade plus wait and not all that good of a herd.

Utah Henry Mtns, (see above).

Closing will certainly recover deer, but who gets to say when it can/will/ever open? I know a bunch of Cali and Wa guys who'd be afraid the answer would be it might never open again.

We can do better with a steadier hand at management IMO. Closing and LQ are the easy button with big downsides.

I know several people who’ve hunted the Henry’s, not one of them complained about quality or quantity.

I’ve been to the Pauns, it was amazing.


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[Hnthrdr]

I get the don’t give an inch sentiment. But the 2A has 0 to do with hunting. We need to treat it as such. I get some Anti’s (gun&hunter) think the 2A is linked to hunting. It’s not. We should never give an inch concerning the 2A.

Now as far as hunters limiting ourselves, in the name of expanding opportunities. I am not against it. I think it’s an interesting idea and sounds like several states are trying it. Heck if the biologist deem take by hunters is too high, would you rather get a tag and have to hunt with a muzzy or sans scope or wait 3-4 years to hunt. I know my answer that is for sure.

 

[Shortschaf]

I get the don’t give an inch sentiment. But the 2A has 0 to do with hunting. We need to treat it as such. I get some Anti’s (gun&hunter) think the 2A is linked to hunting. It’s not. We should never give an inch concerning the 2A.

You are of course 100% right and I agree. I mean to point out that if modern rifles are suddenly no longer allowed for hunting purposes, far less people will own them in the first place. But I digress. Was not the intent of the thread

 

[CMF]

It won't do anything for "herd quality".

I will say I agree that it won’t help the herd quality, but should help buck age class.

Hey, sure, I stuck to the questions as posed but struggled with the mix of "herd/buck quality" as they're two different measurables, but I figured the spirit of the questions was "better/bigger/more bucks = higher herd quality" so that's

Yea, I'm assuming quality meant better bucks. What else are you guys considering "herd quality"

There are whitetail areas in MS that are primarily archery, some with no gun hunts, some with a few. The quantity and quality are better than areas in the same regions that have long gun seasons. There are also elk areas in NM that are primitive only and are known for big elk. I'm not sure if there is actual data that shows the age class is better than rifle areas, but worth digging into if you want real data.

 

[Pacific_Fork]

The biggest bulls, or number of them, mainly come out of NM units that have rifle season, I luckily hunted them once. NV and AZ also. The factor is limited tags in the desert SW. But let’s not compare that to OTC mule deer in the mountain west.

 

[wyosam]

This being Rokslide, it seems a 30-06 in a traditional stock with a leupold should be primitive enough to reduce harvest significantly.


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[270Hunter]

Yea, I'm assuming quality meant better bucks. What else are you guys considering "herd quality"

There are whitetail areas in MS that are primarily archery, some with no gun hunts, some with a few. The quantity and quality are better than areas in the same regions that have long gun seasons. There are also elk areas in NM that are primitive only and are known for big elk. I'm not sure if there is actual data that shows the age class is better than rifle areas, but worth digging into if you want real data.

This is a quote from the proposal analysis on the IDFG website,

Many of the bucks that survive due to decreased hunter success would mature into older age classes over time resulting in increased buck-to-doe ratios and more mature bucks on the landscape.

So when I say herd quality I was referring to the buck-to-doe ratio as it could potentially increase. I understand that this is just one piece of the overall quality of the deer herd, I could’ve been more specific but that’s where I was going with the herd quality!

 

[Netherman]

Often times I think the best change is no change because you'll always be robbing peter to pay paul. What do you tell the occasional hunter that goes for one week every 2-3 years and only hunts with a rifle? What do you tell the archery guys that would like to see all firearm seasons gone? What about the guys who want point restrictions? Or the brown it's down crowd? What about crossbows during archery? What about a primitive archery season?

I think the best is to keep the seasons the way they are and use the heard numbers to dictate tag allocation with success rates and crowding driving the tag numbers per season. From a "steward of the land standpoint" it doesn't really matter the who, when, or hows. There just needs to be x number of animals removed from the landscape.

 

[robby denning]

This being Rokslide, it seems a 30-06 in a traditional stock with a leupold should be primitive enough to reduce harvest significantly.


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Bwahahahahah

 

[Hnthrdr]

As a guy who is a generalist and loves each weapon, bow, muzzy, rifle in their own right. I do not see how primitive weapons would not lower success rates. Anyone else feel free to chime in, but typically when I’m archery or muzzy hunting and see an animal. 800-1000 yards off or hear a bugle, I’m stoked and think nice there is a chance it COULD happen. When I’m rifle hunting and have the same thing happen it’s more likely than not that is a dead buck/bull. Obviously doesn’t always happen but getting 400-500 yards away is child’s play from 200, 100, 50 or 25. More animals will survive

 

[TaperPin]

The average hunter, even if they are “holding out” for a big deer, will shoot a young deer with its first or second 4x4 rack almost every time. I have no problem with those guys hunting early and going home early. Managing for age class sounds great, but takes hunting opportunity away from average hunters.

Some spots will always have better quality than others and fair weather hunters self select out of the more difficult to hunt areas.

 

[robby denning]

I know several people who’ve hunted the Henry’s, not one of them complained about quality or quantity.

I’ve been to the Pauns, it was amazing.


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understood, and I can see your point but jump back to early 2010s and 200inchers were small, it took less way less points to draw (27NR points gave you 7% chance rifle in '24/ 24R points for 7% rifle in '24--double-ish of 10 years ago).

Relatively speaking it's still growing big deer but compared to what it was, quality has slipped. Statistically speaking, a NR starting now may never get to hunt there and a R has a long road to haul.

(and San Juan has a bonus NR tag but it took 27 points to draw an achery tag in '24, it's creeping almost point a year so it can't be caught if you have under 26 points)

*edited to add Epic.com draw odds

 

[Hnthrdr]

The average hunter, even if they are “holding out” for a big deer, will shoot a young deer with its first or second 4x4 rack almost every time. I have no problem with those guys hunting early and going home early. Managing for age class sounds great, but takes hunting opportunity away from average hunters.

Some spots will always have better quality than others and fair weather hunters self select out of the more difficult to hunt areas.

This is the beauty, it won’t take opportunity away. It won’t impose an antler restriction. It will simply make the the guys who want to harvest, be it a 90” buck or a 210” buck get closer to that buck via shooting with iron sights on a muzzy or a centerfire, I suspect more deer will survive because of this therefore. More bucks will live longer and we can see if they get bigger or not. Yes lots of little inexperienced deer will still get killed.

 

[ckleeves]

As a guy who is a generalist and loves each weapon, bow, muzzy, rifle in their own right. I do not see how primitive weapons would not lower success rates. Anyone else feel free to chime in, but typically when I’m archery or muzzy hunting and see an animal. 800-1000 yards off or hear a bugle, I’m stoked and think nice there is a chance it COULD happen. When I’m rifle hunting and have the same thing happen it’s more likely than not that is a dead buck/bull. Obviously doesn’t always happen but getting 400-500 yards away is child’s play from 200, 100, 50 or 25. More animals will survive

Agree 100%. It’s easy to look at success rates across various weapons when they share basically the same season dates and see it. In Co where we have archery, early rifle and muzzy all within 2 weeks of each other this is what success looked like last year in a unit:
Archery: 16%
Muzzy: 36%
Early rifle: 85%
The rifle hunters killed almost twice as many bucks as the archery hunters did and they did it with 30 rifle tags vs 87 archery tags.

 

[TaperPin]

This is the beauty, it won’t take opportunity away. It won’t impose an antler restriction. It will simply make the the guys who want to harvest, be it a 90” buck or a 210” buck get closer to that buck via shooting with iron sights on a muzzy or a centerfire, I suspect more deer will survive because of this therefore. More bucks will live longer and we can see if they get bigger or not. Yes lots of little inexperienced deer will still get killed.

It would be refreshing if more creative seasons were put in place. I enjoy seeing seasons limited by age of the hunter, either old or young. I’ve hunted some antelope areas that were pistol only, and the muzzleloader stuff. It is all a lot of fun.

Being from the state with the one shot antelope hunt, I’d vote for a season that only allowed one cartridge to be used - once the rifle is fired that’s it for the rest of the season. That would at the very least keep the shooter more focused.

Some areas that are wide open and easy to see everything there needs to be extra protection. Sagebrush elk herds and deer in agricultural areas come to mind.

I’m still an oddball and simply don’t look at area statistics - too many times hunting in some of the “worst” areas I seem to turn up bigger animals than many of the friends who hunt based on statistics. An area has to have genetics and pockets to hide in, the rest of it just doesn’t matter, other than kids need to have some method of drawing licenses regularly to protect the hunting heritage.

 

[Lawnboi]

I don’t think it will help.

Only thing hunters hate more than seeing no animals is seeing more people. They do something like this you will still have the same groups pissing and moaning to appointed commissions that will then change structure to please its constituents. Biologists are not managing these animals. Votes and money are. Until that changes I suspect we will see a consistently degrading experience.

I think there is a lot we could do to improve. Create sanctuary. Control predators. Limit commercial grazing. All these things have been going the opposite way for years.

But hey let’s cut in that handicap access to the wilderness lake and let wolves go there while we are at it.

 

[Ucsdryder]

I’ve said it on here quite a bit. I’d love Colorado to do a test. Find a handful of units that the elk winter and summer in and make them primitive. In 4-5 years my prediction is the age class is outstanding.

As far as wound percentage I agree with people saying it’s going to be similar but I think the difference is in the opportunity.

Let’s say Hunter A has a MER of 700 yards with his custom rifle and kestrel but shoots at animals at 1000.

Let’s say Hunter B has a MER of 200 yards with his open sight straight wall rifle, but shoots at animals at 400.

The wound percentage is similar but the opportunities decrease dramatically.

Let’s be honest, it’s not hard to get within 500-800 yards of a deer or elk.

 

[Hnthrdr]

It would be refreshing if more creative seasons were put in place. I enjoy seeing seasons limited by age of the hunter, either old or young. I’ve hunted some antelope areas that were pistol only, and the muzzleloader stuff. It is all a lot of fun.

Being from the state with the one shot antelope hunt, I’d vote for a season that only allowed one cartridge to be used - once the rifle is fired that’s it for the rest of the season. That would at the very least keep the shooter more focused.

Some areas that are wide open and easy to see everything there needs to be extra protection. Sagebrush elk herds and deer in agricultural areas come to mind.

I’m still an oddball and simply don’t look at area statistics - too many times hunting in some of the “worst” areas I seem to turn up bigger animals than many of the friends who hunt based on statistics. An area has to have genetics and pockets to hide in, the rest of it just doesn’t matter, other than kids need to have some method of drawing licenses regularly to protect the hunting heritage.

Completely agree with ensuring we maximize opportunities for youth (especially resident) hunters to be able to hunt their state. I do think tech restrictions is the way to maximize tags while not destroying the resource. And antelope hunting with a muzzle loader is a ton of fun. I think the one bullet is a fun idea, but would be a tough one to regulate. Easier to say only muzzy or only iron sights ect…