Sacrificing weapon quality for buck/herd quality and opportunity

[TaperPin]

Completely agree with ensuring we maximize opportunities for youth (especially resident) hunters to be able to hunt their state. I do think tech restrictions is the way to maximize tags while not destroying the resource. And antelope hunting with a muzzle loader is a ton of fun. I think the one bullet is a fun idea, but would be a tough one to regulate. Easier to say only muzzy or only iron sights ect…

I’d also vote for centerfire rifles open sights only. It would be fun to have a period hunting outfit and rifle out of the 20s, 30s, or 40s. Old timers took a lot of sheep, elk and deer with a 250 savage and receiver sight.

 

[robby denning]

I’d also vote for centerfire rifles open sights only. It would be fun to have a period hunting outfit and rifle out of the 20s, 30s, or 40s. Old timers took a lot of sheep, elk and deer with a 250 savage and receiver sight.

Idaho is considering that for these proposed areas but they’d have to go through legislation to change the wording. Open sighted muzz was already legal language so that’s what they went with to get this proposal to the public.

Can’t speak for Utah.

 

[WRO]

understood, and I can see your point but jump back to early 2010s and 200inchers were small, it took less way less points to draw (27NR points gave you 7% chance rifle in '24/ 24R points for 7% rifle in '24--double-ish of 10 years ago).

Relatively speaking it's still growing big deer but compared to what it was, quality has slipped. Statistically speaking, a NR starting now may never get to hunt there and a R has a long road to haul.

(and San Juan has a bonus NR tag but it took 27 points to draw an achery tag in '24, it's creeping almost point a year so it can't be caught if you have under 26 points)

*edited to add Epic.com draw odds

What of that is a function of weather and what is a function of management.

I personally saw 9 bucks over 200 in 3 days in the pauns and watched my buddy kill a 215 with a bow. The biggest was in the 225 range and probably would have ended up high teens as a net typical.

Yes I understand those tags are hard to draw, but statistically no different than the hard to draw tags in Idaho.

Idaho’s current free for all system in most units doesn’t seem sustainable. Even just pick a unit and a weapon would be a good start.

 

[S.Clancy]

Yea, I'm assuming quality meant better bucks. What else are you guys considering "herd quality"

There are whitetail areas in MS that are primarily archery, some with no gun hunts, some with a few. The quantity and quality are better than areas in the same regions that have long gun seasons. There are also elk areas in NM that are primitive only and are known for big elk. I'm not sure if there is actual data that shows the age class is better than rifle areas, but worth digging into if you want real data.

"Herd quality" to me means something that is pushing the needle in population. We always use it to mean bigger bucks, which have no definable positive affect on population

 

[Pacific_Fork]

If we stopped taking 70+ yard archery shots, and 500+ yard rifle shots, there would likely be better hunting for all of us. While much has changed since the 90s and before, technology is something every hunter can control themselves. Obviously self policing is a pipe dream, and I hunt what some consider LR with my rifle.

Idaho’s current free for all system in most units doesn’t seem sustainable. Even just pick a unit and a weapon would be a good start.

You just need to prove this using any method other than anecdotes. Then hunters can vote on what the evidence shows and what kind of hunting they want for the future.

 

[CasNed]

Rifle season, limit it to 4x scopes
Muzzle loader, limit it to 1x scopes
Archery, maximum 3 pin sights and no sliders

We need to promote “hunting” again, long range is fun, I take full advantage of it myself, but I would harvest less animals if I couldn’t do it. Same goes for 80+ yard bombs with the compound.

Cut cow and doe tags in most areas for 3-5 years to give the herds some time to bounce back.

I would much rather states try to limit success than opportunity.

 

[CMF]

Rifle season, limit it to 4x scopes
Muzzle loader, limit it to 1x scopes
Archery, maximum 3 pin sights and no sliders

I think If you're going to limit rifle, just make it muzzy.
I wouldn't see the point of muddying the regs on archery equipment either, if that was the reg, you'd just have to go 0~35, 50, & 65 pin to keep shooting out to 65-70

 

[CMF]

"Herd quality" to me means something that is pushing the needle in population. We always use it to mean bigger bucks, which have no definable positive affect on population

That sounds like quantity...
I think that's why most interpret it to be bigger bucks. Only other way I would interpret herd quality is maybe doe weights, m:f ration or maybe fawn recruitment....

 

[MuleyFever]

What of that is a function of weather and what is a function of management.

I personally saw 9 bucks over 200 in 3 days in the pauns and watched my buddy kill a 215 with a bow. The biggest was in the 225 range and probably would have ended up high teens as a net typical.

Yes I understand those tags are hard to draw, but statistically no different than the hard to draw tags in Idaho.

Idaho’s current free for all system in most units doesn’t seem sustainable. Even just pick a unit and a weapon would be a good start.

When was this? I know multiple that have hunted the Pauns over the last few years, 2 people last year, and not seen a 190" buck. The Henrys is a shell of what it once was. Maybe 12 years ago I think over half the bucks killed there were 200". I have hunted it twice in the last 3 years and not seen a 200" deer, dead or alive. The heard on the Henrys is also down over 50% in that time if I remember correctly. Granted, big deer still come off the units. I saw pictures of 3 or 4 giant bucks killed off the Henrys last year.

 

[long hunter]

Might not like the reduction or even closure of deer hunting, then might not like the issue of one tag either for bow,rifle or muzzle loader might not like the closure of killing does and calves or fawns is there a easy answer probably not but at the current rate if things do not change a bit there will be no mule deer to hunt we sit and bitch at each other but individual greed is what drive us that and greedy natural resources department along with things such as CWD habitat loss and anti hunting rhetoric there is no easy answer now is there. We as hunters are the answer voice your opinions to state legislatures, vote and be willing to make sacrifices for the good of the animal face it the hey days of western hunting are drawing to a end unless you are very well off and willing to pay for the privilege of decimating a once noble game animal.

 

[Hnthrdr]

That sounds like quantity...
I think that's why most interpret it to be bigger bucks. Only other way I would interpret herd quality is maybe doe weights, m:f ration or maybe fawn recruitment....

these are all good metrics. I think in most minds, mine included, more deer. Will equal more bucks, will equal older bucks, will equal more opportunities for a buck to grow into something special, but I recon genetics would have to be there, I think most guys would be tickled if they were wading through 150 class bucks, I know I wouldn’t be mad about it

 

[S.Clancy]

That sounds like quantity...
I think that's why most interpret it to be bigger bucks. Only other way I would interpret herd quality is maybe doe weights, m:f ration or maybe fawn recruitment....

All those things ultimately influence population, except bigger bucks and buck:doe ratios

Edit: I think there is data out there (Utah?) that says lower buck:doe ratios help populations recover faster.

 

[CasNed]

I think If you're going to limit rifle, just make it muzzy.
I wouldn't see the point of muddying the regs on archery equipment either, if that was the reg, you'd just have to go 0~35, 50, & 65 pin to keep shooting out to 65-70

Yeah limiting archery success is the harder weapon to address. Archery success and participation from 2000 to know is up considerably. Maybe limit it to 1 pin / no slider.

 

[robby denning]

What of that is a function of weather and what is a function of management.

I personally saw 9 bucks over 200 in 3 days in the pauns and watched my buddy kill a 215 with a bow. The biggest was in the 225 range and probably would have ended up high teens as a net typical.

Yes I understand those tags are hard to draw, but statistically no different than the hard to draw tags in Idaho.

Idaho’s current free for all system in most units doesn’t seem sustainable. Even just pick a unit and a weapon would be a good start.

According to Randy Larsen of BYU, he said the initial recovery of the Henry's was very related to favorable moisture patterns in the mid-2000s. I don't remember all the specifics beyond that, but yes, weather was huge.

 

[SDHNTR]

I like the idea. Whether there is empirical evidence to support the idea or not, philosophically, if we’re truly honest, we’ve probably gone too far with our human capabilities against animals. The pendulum needs a swing back the other way. Make hunting hard again.

 

[S.Clancy]

According to Randy Larsen of BYU, he said the initial recovery of the Henry's was very related to favorable moisture patterns in the mid-2000s. I don't remember all the specifics beyond that, but yes, weather was huge.

Didn't they also have big fires that turned over habitat too?

That's what happened in Unit 270 in MT. Big landscape scale fires coincided with LE to make it awesome until the mid-2010s.

 

[MuleyFever]

Didn't they also have big fires that turned over habitat too?

That's what happened in Unit 270 in MT. Big landscape scale fires coincided with LE to make it awesome until the mid-2010s.

The south end of the Henrys burned in 2003 I think. The oak brush that is there now is one of the things keeping big deer out there. I mentioned I saw some pics of some big deer killed last year. I think there were 3 or 4 archery and the sportsmans tag that I saw pics of. All but one looked like it was killed on the south end. I dont know how the rifle hunters did last year. Unfortunately, Cheyenne said they told her not to do her post season survey anymore.

 

[TrinityAlps]

Agree 100%. It’s easy to look at success rates across various weapons when they share basically the same season dates and see it. In Co where we have archery, early rifle and muzzy all within 2 weeks of each other this is what success looked like last year in a unit:
Archery: 16%
Muzzy: 36%
Early rifle: 85%
The rifle hunters killed almost twice as many bucks as the archery hunters did and they did it with 30 rifle tags vs 87 archery tags.

Case closed.

 

[SDHNTR]

Case closed.

This is where I’m at. It’s unfathomable to me when people say that modern rifle systems and their ability to kill at 6-800 yards doesn’t impact lethality. It’s just common sense. And sometimes we don’t need data (because “data” can be twisted), we need common sense.

 

[270Hunter]

I would much rather states try to limit success than opportunity.

I agree with this 100 percent, I want the opportunity! Rifle, muzzy, compound or recurve I just want the opportunity to stay here.