S2H Winter Rifle Course Observations/lessons

[Antares]

This is the response I received from them a few weeks ago. "Buy an MDT chassis and use AICS mags..." Pass.

 

[Formidilosus]

Many climbing/mountaineering companies make jackets that meet these thresholds. Some quick places to look would be Rab, Feathered Friends and Western Mountaineering all make parkas with fill weight from 12-20oz. Occassionally color is a bit less than desirable compared to camo but both FF and Rab frequently make coats in black.

A buddy has a Patagonia Grade VII down jacket that I'm envious of every time he puts it on. It's a damn shame that was discontinued. And also not a lot cheaper.

Most are belt length (too short), and or are heavy.

I haven’t looked in a couple of years, but what jacket has 12+ oz of fill, falls to upper thigh, and doesn’t weigh 30+ ounces?

 

[JohnB]

Most are belt length (too short), and or are heavy.

I haven’t looked in a couple of years, but what jacket has 12+ oz of fill, falls to upper thigh, and doesn’t weigh 30+ ounces?

Ah, makes sense. Those are some tough criteria and I'm not sure that any of the jackets I was thinking of would meet them. I'll be curious to hear what is in the works. I've been real happy with my FL Chamberlin this winter for cougar calling around 10 degrees and bc skiing in the -10 to 0 range but down jacketitis can strike at the damned times.

 

[wind gypsy]

I almost got one of these a handful of years back but settled for a FL Chamberlin on sale.

Ion Parka – Western Mountaineering

www.westernmountaineering.com

If 8 oz of 850+ fill plus gore windstopper isn't enough.. they make this too

Snøjack Parka GWS – Western Mountaineering

www.westernmountaineering.com

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I almost got one of these a handful of years back but settled for a FL Chamberlin on sale.

Ion Parka – Western Mountaineering

www.westernmountaineering.com

If 8 oz of 850+ fill plus gore windstopper isn't enough.. they make this too

Snøjack Parka GWS – Western Mountaineering

www.westernmountaineering.com

I’ve owned the snojack. It’s typical mountaneering fit where it’s super short in the torso and back (by design).

For that price you’re at Nunatak custom territory who uses the best available untreated down and whatever face fabric you want. Plus tailored to your dimensions and can be made long in the seat, etc.

 

[wind gypsy]

I’ve owned the snojack. It’s typical mountaneering fit where it’s super short in the torso and back (by design).

For that price you’re at Nunatak custom territory who uses the best available untreated down and whatever face fabric you want. Plus tailored to your dimensions and can be made long in the seat, etc.

Ion looks like a longer option. I'm a fan of Nunatak, have custom apex puffy jacket, pants, and sleeping bag from them. I didn't think Jan made anything with windstopper though.

On something that warm, the extra creature comfort features (pockets) are nice too which the WM doesn't seem to have either.

 

[TOLeary]

Most are belt length (too short), and or are heavy.

I haven’t looked in a couple of years, but what jacket has 12+ oz of fill, falls to upper thigh, and doesn’t weigh 30+ ounces?

You’re most likely looking at a custom Timmermade or Nunatak if they’re open to it. Atleast what you could get now. And fully made to your specs

 

[coloradoan]

If I sent this thread (and the comments on down vs synthetic) to Jerry Wigutow he'd have an aneurysm.

 

[Marbles]

Most are belt length (too short), and or are heavy.

I haven’t looked in a couple of years, but what jacket has 12+ oz of fill, falls to upper thigh, and doesn’t weigh 30+ ounces?

What quality down? My Rab Position Pro only has 10.6 ounces of fill is warm enough it has yet to make it into my pack on an overnight. I have used in for multi hour range trips at -20 when I spent most of my time prone. Total weight is 26-27 ounces. It is long.

It would go over a Rab Electron Pro if in conditions that justified a parka in the field. The two are a more flexible system than a single parka and outside of high altitude I doubt more would be needed. If you need more, the face fabric strength of heavy high mountain parkas is also a good idea. Something like the Rab Expedition 8000. After all, the colder it is, the more dangerous a rip and shedding insulation becomes.

Plenty of the Rabs are cut to cover the hips and butt. As are down mountaineering parkas, something that only comes to the belt is a jacket.

 

[9.3koolaid]

If I sent this thread (and the comments on down vs synthetic) to Jerry Wigutow he'd have an aneurysm.

That's his default state in my experience

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

My Nunatak jacket that I bought off the classifieds is either 850 or 900 fill down and weighs 12 oz total weight, including overfill.
It could be a bit longer in the front, but the back drops down a nice amount.
It’s really warm.

 

[DangerRanger]

Thank you, putting in for a late season tag this year and prepping for cold. A bit overwhelming at first but sure I will get a lot out of it as I parse through.

These are extremely valuable for the community

 

[HighUintas]

What quality down? My Rab Position Pro only has 10.6 ounces of fill is warm enough it has yet to make it into my pack on an overnight. I have used in for multi hour range trips at -20 when I spent most of my time prone. Total weight is 26-27 ounces. It is long.

It would go over a Rab Electron Pro if in conditions that justified a parka in the field. The two are a more flexible system than a single parka and outside of high altitude I doubt more would be needed. If you need more, the face fabric strength of heavy high mountain parkas is also a good idea. Something like the Rab Expedition 8000. After all, the colder it is, the more dangerous a rip and shedding insulation becomes.

Plenty of the Rabs are cut to cover the hips and butt. As are down mountaineering parkas, something that only comes to the belt is a jacket.

I had looked at that one before, but I have an electron and it fits me so snuggly that it's sort of turned me off from trying another one. I got it in a size too small.

Are the sleeve cuffs on the positron stupidly tight?

 

[Okie_Poke]

Oh yes, you need more than the Grummans. Right now I am using two Grummans. However that is a compromised answer as no matter large you get the top pair, it does weigh on and compress the bottom pair. Same as above- Goosefeet Gear.

What temperature range would you say a set of Grummans are good for as a static insulation layer?

 

[Marbles]

I had looked at that one before, but I have an electron and it fits me so snuggly that it's sort of turned me off from trying another one. I got it in a size too small.

Are the sleeve cuffs on the positron stupidly tight?

No, the cuffs have a Velcro adjustment. I sized mine up to fit over a base layer, a mid layer, and my standard puffy layer. It is something to put on when sitting still and take off before starting to move for me.

 

[Formidilosus]

What temperature range would you say a set of Grummans are good for as a static insulation layer?

Static for hours, with a baselayer, and a midlayer such as a mid weight fleece- 40° F or so when not in the sun. It has the same loft as a 40-50° F sleeping bag.

 

[JCMCUBIC]

That person was me. I had the good fortune of learning that my mid-layer, a lightly used Kuiu Pelaton 240 Full Zip, was quite water resistant and absorbed very little water despite laying down completely submerged in the creek. I did not have any other layers on outside the pelaton as I usually hike in a base layer and a mid layer to avoid overheating. @Formidilosus seemed very surprised when I got out of the creek and my midlayer was only slightly damp. I’m not aware of any water treatment to this mid layer but it sure seemed to repel water during the test.

Interesting. This makes me curious about how well it breaths when zipped.

I've been using a Pelaton 240 vest for a few years now and have been very pleased with it. From teens to 60's it's one piece I'm usually wearing. Not having sleeves, and being unzipped or off when moving, I haven't noticed any lack of breathability issues...and I'm a world class sweater.

 

[CBB1]

Equipment and training:


Gloves and hats:

All kinds were brought and used. Like the mid-layer, there were trends based on where people were from/how much experience they get in winter. Fleece liners or mechanic gloves, and full fingered insulated over gloves were common from those with maybe less experience in these conditions. Wool and fleece liners, with leather or down mittens, leather mittens with gauntlets and felted wool liners, and one with beaver fur mittens were most common with those from these conditions.
For shooting thin fleece gloves suck due to slipping and lack of grip. Thin leather gloves, especially with a thin wool lining work best. For insulted gloves- fingered gloves suck. You must keep all your fingered thietyer for them to share warmth. Higher gauntlet style mittens with felted wool liners are very warm, durable and functional- surplus Artic Flyer Mittens for example.
The ultimate is beaver, coyote, bison, caribou, and especially seal skin mittens/gauntlets. They have no equal.

Form, is there a liner glove, mitt that you would recommend. I have always struggled with my fingers, in fact often times it’s my limiting factor. I have used the surplus wool liner gloves for a long time and this year tried the Black Ovis down over mitts. They helped but I don’t think I would’ve been comfortable in this class with that setup.
My fingers are what concern me most when I consider trips in the conditions of this class.


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[NSI]

Form, is there a liner glove, mitt that you would recommend. I have always struggled with my fingers, in fact often times it’s my limiting factor. I have used the surplus wool liner gloves for a long time and this year tried the Black Ovis down over mitts. They helped but I don’t think I would’ve been comfortable in this class with that setup.
My fingers are what concern me most when I consider trips in the conditions of this class.


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I like these https://zpacks.com/products/possumdown-gloves
Inside these https://www.backcountry.com/b/hestra-wakayama-mitten?

EDIT: As several have noted, thin loosely knit wool glove liners like the Possum Downs I referenced above have issues in shooting. Slippery, catching on stippling, etc. The rec for think leather gloves is good and we should get a few more specific recommendations for those. I like these due to fit: https://eccgear.com/products/fr-glove

-J

 

[Marbles]

Form, is there a liner glove, mitt that you would recommend. I have always struggled with my fingers, in fact often times it’s my limiting factor. I have used the surplus wool liner gloves for a long time and this year tried the Black Ovis down over mitts. They helped but I don’t think I would’ve been comfortable in this class with that setup.
My fingers are what concern me most when I consider trips in the conditions of this class.


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I like a nitrile mechanics glove, with a lightly insulated leather ice climbing glove over in. The OR Alti mits. Down to -20, I just use the shell of the Alti mits, but have the liners if extra warmth is needed.

For me, I have little wimp hands that hate the cold, even when moving hard I need to start with mits on or my hands will not warm up, my hands sweat to, the nitrile glove works as a VBL. I would worry that down mits would not hold loft in heavy use due to wetting from both the outside and the inside. I will strip down layers from my body before I start sweating in them, but for my hands it is either sweat, or turn purple and get so cold I would have more dexterity in mits.

Generally, I avoid synthetic insulation, but like it in mits.