S2H winter class 2026 observations and lessons learned

[Nine Banger]

A vote for the Tundras. Once the snow hit they were my only shoe. Hiking, sitting, standing, shooting. Feet were warm, dry and comfortable. Thicker socks or a slightly thicker wool footbed would have been nice on the most extreme day, but I never actually had cold feet. Just cool feet.

Plus 1, Hodor and I were stomping around in lock step with the Tundras.

I had a set of YakTrax liners just in case but they are going back to Amazon today.

 

[Nine Banger]

I hear what you are saying! What about a standard rockstock forearm and a rockstock lite butstock?

I like the way you think but I'd go the other way.

Standard Rokstok Butt, Lite forend. @Cliff Gray

 

[Nine Banger]

@Formidilosus , @Tommyhaak and @longrangelead: The sacrifices you have made to take a few weeks a year to help us get better are not unnoticed. Thank you for everything.

Fellow shooters: it was a pleasure shooting with y’all. I look forward to shooting with you again. Thank you for everything.


The class was great. The food and accommodation are great too. It’s never a dull day in Montana.


If time is keeping you from attending, try to work it out some way. If $ is keeping you from attending, stop buying stuff and prioritize these costs and get to class. Getting instruction from world class shooters is priceless. I've pursued instruction in other shooting disciplines and only once before have I encountered an instructor that truly cared deeply about our success like Form does.


Gear Stuff:

Guys are asking about a gear list. Form already did it in the “baselayers to binos” thread. It’s all there…all of it. Do the work and it will pay off more than just being handed a list. I had to purchase a ton of stuff due to stark differences between my home location and our class location. I pretty much used everything I brought except for my mittens, a couple mid layers and my second puffy pant layer. I needed the double puffy top layer because my first layer was still wet the day after the rewarming drill. Having some extra stuff was a comfort because I had "somewhere to go" if I got cold. If I had been at the end of my gear when it was 20-30 degrees that would have been nerve wracking.


I followed Form’s recommendations carefully with few exceptions. All his ideas are sound and tested. Test what works for you in your life and adjust as needed.


I had a few issues:

• ESP apex ears…right ear stopped working …probably not from dust, snow and ice…presumed wear and tear…dealer is fixing for free
• Waters mags…too much grit...I don’t think temperature had much to do with this…sometimes my round would eject but not load another round because the follower was still depressed and I had to bang it against something. The conditions on the flat range are strenuous for gear tho, unlike other ranges. Lots of airborne dust, snow, moisture, etc. The dust is rock dust and unforgiving compared to the sandy loam I'm used to at home.
• I had a t3x safety fail on the last day of shooting, but I was haphazardly throwing myself and my stuff on the ground at times. I was able to get it working again with a few dry fires and manual manipulation. No big deal, but it happened. For a split second I was about to give up and announce my gun was done for now, but it resolved. The type of snow we had would stick to your action and melt when the gun is fired. Also, dirt would stick to snow on your hands, pack and gun, etc. like cling-ons on livestock.
• I short stroked once with gloves and double fed my gun. It’s easy to see how an ND can occur too shooting with gloves under time and stress. There was a lot of donning and doffing of stuff to cover your hands.
• Talking about cling-ons...this was a thing once it snowed with knees and hands and elbows. I was more comfortable wearing my hard shell the last 2 days and not having to worry about taking a knee or laying on the ground and then dusting off or avoiding contact with the ground because I could see ice building up on my knees prior.
• The Maven RS1.2 magnification ring doesn’t functionally work at extremely low temperatures. I think it was around 25 that it quit. You could “make it work” but it’s a chore. (The Shoot2hunt scope works fine)

Seeing all the new gear was cool. At the risk of revealing anything that’s on the DL I’ll stop there. Y'all will see it all soon enough.


Rewarming Drill:

This was thought provoking.

I was surprised that my beard and head hair froze solid before I could even get my puffy top and knit cap on.

The water on my glasses froze instantly when I was back on the surface and I had occluded vision until I got into my bag and took them off and shoved them in a stash pocket in the tent wall. My spotter had to help me finish zipping my puffy pants because of this. (Thanks again, Hodor, you’re a great “P”)

Also surprising was the amount of grit on my body. The bag time is slimy and steamy. I now know what a turd feels like in the large intestine; or a maggot in a carcass if that’s more palatable. I peeked a few times and observed that the outside of my bag was covered in a layer of frost, as well as the entire inside of the tent but I was comfortable.

If you don’t have a jet boil or similar stove that can make hot water on demand, I’d skip this step and just tough it out in your bag.

My boots were effed; frozen solid. If this was for real, you might have to take a day off and stay put and get your affairs together before finishing your pack out.

When I got home at 1AM on Monday morning I was out on the front porch in my underwear (“cold” is recalibrated now) shaking out my gear that was involved in this drill and had a dust cloud come out of my sweater. Imagine the cloud you would observe behind a truck booking it down a dirt road.

The drill makes me think about tradeoffs, and if I had to do a creek crossing or ice crossing to complete a trip I’d think hard about stripping down to underwear (or be nude) and crocs and then redressing on the other side of the riskiest spots...even if it was -1F, I'd be considering it. It seems like some paracord and an inflatable pack buoy might be worth having for high-risk crossings. Your puffy suit should probably be in a compression dry bag too at least when crossing a wet obstacle.

When I do the drill again, I’d ask to do it in crocs to avoid the wet boots and request to spend the entire night in situ to finish drying all my stuff instead of laying it out the day after to prepare to fly again. I had my Vivo Tundras and an XXL puffy for the following day but that would have been a long day with wet boots and a damp XL puffy. Once you're good in the bag, it's just a waiting game to be dry.

 

[Mik123]

How do size the ranger sweather? Let's say you are a large for T-shirts, sweatshirts etc. Which size would you get?

 

[Nine Banger]

How do size the ranger sweather? Let's say you are a large for T-shirts, sweatshirts etc. Which size would you get?

XL.

I started with a large regular sweater.

Switched to an XL with the 1/4 zip.

 

[Bluumoon]

I like the way you think but I'd go the other way.

Standard Rokstok Butt, Lite forend. @Cliff Gray

My next project.

 

[RockAndSage]

@Formidilosus , @Tommyhaak and @longrangelead: The sacrifices you have made to take a few weeks a year to help us get better are not unnoticed. Thank you for everything.

Fellow shooters: it was a pleasure shooting with y’all. I look forward to shooting with you again. Thank you for everything.


The class was great. The food and accommodation are great too. It’s never a dull day in Montana.


If time is keeping you from attending, try to work it out some way. If $ is keeping you from attending, stop buying stuff and prioritize these costs and get to class. Getting instruction from world class shooters is priceless.


Gear Stuff:

Guys are asking about a gear list. Form already did it in the “baselayers to binos” thread. It’s all there…all of it. Do the work and it will pay off more than just being handed a list. I had to purchase a ton of stuff due to stark differences between my home location and our class location. I pretty much used everything I brought except for my mittens, a couple mid layers and my second puffy pant layer. I needed the double puffy top layer because my first layer was still wet the day after the rewarming drill. Having some extra stuff was a comfort because I had "somewhere to go" if I got cold. If I had been at the end of my gear when it was 20-30 degrees that would have been nerve wracking.


I followed Form’s recommendations carefully with few exceptions. All his ideas are sound and tested. Test what works for you in your life and adjust as needed.


I had a few issues:

• ESP apex ears…right ear stopped working …probably not from dust, snow and ice…presumed wear and tear…dealer is fixing for free
• Waters mags…too much grit...I don’t think temperature had much to do with this…sometimes my round would eject but not load another round because the follower was still depressed and I had to bang it against something. The conditions on the flat range are strenuous for gear tho, unlike other ranges. Lots of airborne dust, snow, moisture, etc. The dust is rock dust and unforgiving compared to the sandy loam I'm used to at home.
• I had a t3x safety fail on the last day of shooting, but I was haphazardly throwing myself and my stuff on the ground at times. I was able to get it working again with a few dry fires and manual manipulation. No big deal, but it happened. For a split second I was about to give up and announce my gun was done for now, but it resolved. The type of snow we had would stick to your action and melt when the gun is fired. Also, dirt would stick to snow on your hands, pack and gun, etc. like cling-ons on livestock.
• I short stroked once with gloves and double fed my gun. It’s easy to see how an ND can occur too shooting with gloves under time and stress. There was a lot of donning and doffing of stuff to cover your hands.
• Talking about cling-ons...this was a thing once it snowed with knees and hands and elbows. I was more comfortable wearing my hard shell the last 2 days and not having to worry about taking a knee or laying on the ground and then dusting off or avoiding contact with the ground because I could see ice building up on my knees prior.
• The Maven RS1.2 magnification ring doesn’t functionally work at extremely low temperatures. I think it was around 25 that it quit. You could “make it work” but it’s a chore. (The Shoot2hunt scope works fine)

Seeing all the new gear was cool. At the risk of revealing anything that’s on the DL I’ll stop there. Y'all will see it all soon enough.


Rewarming Drill:

This was thought provoking.

I was surprised that my beard and head hair froze solid before I could even get my puffy top and knit cap on.

The water on my glasses froze instantly when I was back on the surface and I had occluded vision until I got into my bag and took them off and shoved them in a stash pocket in the tent wall. My spotter had to help me finish zipping my puffy pants because of this. (Thanks again, Hodor, you’re a great “P”)

Also surprising was the amount of grit on my body. The bag time is slimy and steamy. I now know what a turd feels like in the large intestine; or a maggot in a carcass if that’s more palatable. I peeked a few times and observed that the outside of my bag was covered in a layer of frost, as well as the entire inside of the tent but I was comfortable.

If you don’t have a jet boil or similar stove that can make hot water on demand, I’d skip this step and just tough it out in your bag.

My boots were effed; frozen solid. If this was for real, you might have to take a day off and stay put and get your affairs together before finishing your pack out.

When I got home at 1AM on Monday morning I was out on the front porch in my underwear (“cold” is recalibrated now) shaking out my gear that was involved in this drill and had a dust cloud come out of my sweater. Imagine the cloud you would observe behind a truck booking it down a dirt road.

The drill makes me think about tradeoffs, and if I had to do a creek crossing or ice crossing to complete a trip I’d think hard about stripping down to underwear and crocs and then redressing on the other side of the riskiest spots...even if it was -1F, I'd be considering it. It seems like some paracord and an inflatable pack buoy might be worth having for high-risk crossings. Your puffy suit should probably be in a compression dry bag too at least when crossing a wet obstacle.

When I do the drill again, I’d ask to do it in crocs to avoid the wet boots and request to spend the entire night in situ to finish drying all my stuff instead of laying it out the day after to prepare to fly again. Once you're good in the bag, its just a waiting game.

Every one of these student reviews adds really interesting bits and pieces to the picture, definitely appreciate the detail you guys are sharing.

 

[Chris in TN]

This may sound crazy.... Remington 700's and clones have been killing shit in all kinds of weather and scenarios for decades. Don't treat your rifle like shit in extreme conditions, and you will likely be ok. If you are truly bothered by it, I would sell it immediately and buy one that you have full confidence in. If you don't, you will always be worrying about it.

I think a guy can read this stuff and learn from it without selling all of his gear that would be expected to fail if treated the way gear is treated in a course like this. My car would likely fail in some similar manner if I spent a week at a racetrack with it, but it still gets me to the grocery store OK. I won't be trading it but can appreciate what is learned at the racetrack and am glad people will share that knowledge.

That perspective is what I think a lot of people miss in threads like this. There's value in knowing as much as possible about the potential risks and failures you're getting into, but it doesn't mean you're automatically going to fail if you don't go to the greatest possible degree to address every single one of them. I read and enjoy a lot of stuff here that doesn't make me go out and sell my existing stuff and doesn't always even stop me from buying new stuff that others might think of as less than ideal. There's value in being better able to assess risks, without needing to eliminate every last one of them - just recognize that they exist and do what you can to mitigate them. Like.....don't leave your R700 in the snow overnight.

Hunting is supposed to be fun. I am 100% certain that if I made my kids endure all the 'what if' type of training available for western hunts, they'd never go again - and I might not either.

And in saying that, I am not discounting the reality that western hunting (really any hunting) can be, and is, dangerous and difficult. Life has risks. It's good to know them and assess them and mitigate them. But most of us will have some constraints on exactly how many risks we can eliminate altogether. And yes, some of those constraints might even be of our own choosing - and that's OK.

 

[6.5x284]

@Formidilosus , @Tommyhaak and @longrangelead: The sacrifices you have made to take a few weeks a year to help us get better are not unnoticed. Thank you for everything.

Fellow shooters: it was a pleasure shooting with y’all. I look forward to shooting with you again. Thank you for everything.


The class was great. The food and accommodation are great too. It’s never a dull day in Montana.


If time is keeping you from attending, try to work it out some way. If $ is keeping you from attending, stop buying stuff and prioritize these costs and get to class. Getting instruction from world class shooters is priceless. I've pursued instruction in other shooting disciplines and only once before have I encountered an instructor that truly cared deeply about our success like Form does.


Gear Stuff:

Guys are asking about a gear list. Form already did it in the “baselayers to binos” thread. It’s all there…all of it. Do the work and it will pay off more than just being handed a list. I had to purchase a ton of stuff due to stark differences between my home location and our class location. I pretty much used everything I brought except for my mittens, a couple mid layers and my second puffy pant layer. I needed the double puffy top layer because my first layer was still wet the day after the rewarming drill. Having some extra stuff was a comfort because I had "somewhere to go" if I got cold. If I had been at the end of my gear when it was 20-30 degrees that would have been nerve wracking.


I followed Form’s recommendations carefully with few exceptions. All his ideas are sound and tested. Test what works for you in your life and adjust as needed.


I had a few issues:

• ESP apex ears…right ear stopped working …probably not from dust, snow and ice…presumed wear and tear…dealer is fixing for free
• Waters mags…too much grit...I don’t think temperature had much to do with this…sometimes my round would eject but not load another round because the follower was still depressed and I had to bang it against something. The conditions on the flat range are strenuous for gear tho, unlike other ranges. Lots of airborne dust, snow, moisture, etc. The dust is rock dust and unforgiving compared to the sandy loam I'm used to at home.
• I had a t3x safety fail on the last day of shooting, but I was haphazardly throwing myself and my stuff on the ground at times. I was able to get it working again with a few dry fires and manual manipulation. No big deal, but it happened. For a split second I was about to give up and announce my gun was done for now, but it resolved. The type of snow we had would stick to your action and melt when the gun is fired. Also, dirt would stick to snow on your hands, pack and gun, etc. like cling-ons on livestock.
• I short stroked once with gloves and double fed my gun. It’s easy to see how an ND can occur too shooting with gloves under time and stress. There was a lot of donning and doffing of stuff to cover your hands.
• Talking about cling-ons...this was a thing once it snowed with knees and hands and elbows. I was more comfortable wearing my hard shell the last 2 days and not having to worry about taking a knee or laying on the ground and then dusting off or avoiding contact with the ground because I could see ice building up on my knees prior.
• The Maven RS1.2 magnification ring doesn’t functionally work at extremely low temperatures. I think it was around 25 that it quit. You could “make it work” but it’s a chore. (The Shoot2hunt scope works fine)

Seeing all the new gear was cool. At the risk of revealing anything that’s on the DL I’ll stop there. Y'all will see it all soon enough.


Rewarming Drill:

This was thought provoking.

I was surprised that my beard and head hair froze solid before I could even get my puffy top and knit cap on.

The water on my glasses froze instantly when I was back on the surface and I had occluded vision until I got into my bag and took them off and shoved them in a stash pocket in the tent wall. My spotter had to help me finish zipping my puffy pants because of this. (Thanks again, Hodor, you’re a great “P”)

Also surprising was the amount of grit on my body. The bag time is slimy and steamy. I now know what a turd feels like in the large intestine; or a maggot in a carcass if that’s more palatable. I peeked a few times and observed that the outside of my bag was covered in a layer of frost, as well as the entire inside of the tent but I was comfortable.

If you don’t have a jet boil or similar stove that can make hot water on demand, I’d skip this step and just tough it out in your bag.

My boots were effed; frozen solid. If this was for real, you might have to take a day off and stay put and get your affairs together before finishing your pack out.

When I got home at 1AM on Monday morning I was out on the front porch in my underwear (“cold” is recalibrated now) shaking out my gear that was involved in this drill and had a dust cloud come out of my sweater. Imagine the cloud you would observe behind a truck booking it down a dirt road.

The drill makes me think about tradeoffs, and if I had to do a creek crossing or ice crossing to complete a trip I’d think hard about stripping down to underwear and crocs and then redressing on the other side of the riskiest spots...even if it was -1F, I'd be considering it. It seems like some paracord and an inflatable pack buoy might be worth having for high-risk crossings. Your puffy suit should probably be in a compression dry bag too at least when crossing a wet obstacle.

When I do the drill again, I’d ask to do it in crocs to avoid the wet boots and request to spend the entire night in situ to finish drying all my stuff instead of laying it out the day after to prepare to fly again. Once you're good in the bag, its just a waiting game.

Cool feedback. As you alluded to, I have stripped down to boxers to cross creeks in case of an incident when the only way I can find to cross looks sketchy or temperature ranges of the air or water are dangerous. I plan for the worst ahead of time. I boil water and fill my nalgene with hot chocolate or something hot and sugary, put my rewarming layers in a dry bag with stove and lighter and have it attached to the outside of the pack, and cross. Once across I stand on my Z Seat and get dressed and resituate my pack.

This isn't a normal occurance but I've had a few times where a brutal system moved in while in deep and creeks returning are extremely high and fast. Also during spring bear, you get a warm day and that snowmelt runs off and it can drop down very cold when the sun goes down and creek levels can rise drastically.

I've never tried a rewarming drill though. Be curious how I'd fare!

 

[Castle Rock]

Rewarming Drill:

This was thought provoking.

I was surprised that my beard and head hair froze solid before I could even get my puffy top and knit cap on.

The water on my glasses froze instantly when I was back on the surface and I had occluded vision until I got into my bag and took them off and shoved them in a stash pocket in the tent wall. My spotter had to help me finish zipping my puffy pants because of this. (Thanks again, Hodor, you’re a great “P”)

Also surprising was the amount of grit on my body. The bag time is slimy and steamy. I now know what a turd feels like in the large intestine; or a maggot in a carcass if that’s more palatable. I peeked a few times and observed that the outside of my bag was covered in a layer of frost, as well as the entire inside of the tent but I was comfortable.

If you don’t have a jet boil or similar stove that can make hot water on demand, I’d skip this step and just tough it out in your bag.

My boots were effed; frozen solid. If this was for real, you might have to take a day off and stay put and get your affairs together before finishing your pack out.

When I got home at 1AM on Monday morning I was out on the front porch in my underwear (“cold” is recalibrated now) shaking out my gear that was involved in this drill and had a dust cloud come out of my sweater. Imagine the cloud you would observe behind a truck booking it down a dirt road.

The drill makes me think about tradeoffs, and if I had to do a creek crossing or ice crossing to complete a trip I’d think hard about stripping down to underwear (or be nude) and crocs and then redressing on the other side of the riskiest spots...even if it was -1F, I'd be considering it. It seems like some paracord and an inflatable pack buoy might be worth having for high-risk crossings. Your puffy suit should probably be in a compression dry bag too at least when crossing a wet obstacle.

When I do the drill again, I’d ask to do it in crocs to avoid the wet boots and request to spend the entire night in situ to finish drying all my stuff instead of laying it out the day after to prepare to fly again. Once you're good in the bag, its just a waiting game.

That’s really interesting, thanks for sharing the details, I can’t imagine that sort of cold.

 

[Nine Banger]

Cool feedback. As you alluded to, I have stripped down to boxers to cross creeks in case of an incident when the only way I can find to cross looks sketchy or temperature ranges of the air or water are dangerous. I plan for the worst ahead of time. I boil water and fill my nalgene with hot chocolate or something hot and sugary, put my rewarming layers in a dry bag with stove and lighter and have it attached to the outside of the pack, and cross. Once across I stand on my Z Seat and get dressed and resituate my pack.

This isn't a normal occurance but I've had a few times where a brutal system moved in while in deep and creeks returning are extremely high and fast. Also during spring bear, you get a warm day and that snowmelt runs off and it can drop down very cold when the sun goes down and creek levels can rise drastically.

I've never tried a rewarming drill though. Be curious how I'd fare!

Sounds like you'd be fine.

It hadn't occurred to me yet to boil stuff before the crossing. Smart.

Having the mat shows experience too. Something I just learned the old fashioned way is do not step on snow with wet socks.

 

[Formidilosus]

Hunting is supposed to be fun. I am 100% certain that if I made my kids endure all the 'what if' type of training available for western hunts, they'd never go again - and I might not either.

Ahh you’re doing it wrong. Kids love that nonsense. Way easier to get them competent than adults.

 

[Axlrod]

Ahh you’re doing it wrong. Kids love that nonsense. Way easier to get them competent than adults.

For sure. I started taking my oldest with me when he was 4. That year we helped a budy pack out a bull in the dark, no moon and 22 below. I always run through every possible thing that could go wrong- and what to do and what gear you need.
One thing I started packing when I had my kids, if it was real cold, was a road flare. They will burn under water. And if you can't start a fire with a flare, then you wern't gonna make it anyway.
He is 26 now, and I have complete confidence he can handle most anything in the mountains.

Really appreciate all the information and feedback on the class. I have been doing this kind of stuff a long time, and I still learn a bunch from you guys.