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- Aug 25, 2020
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Does the Ventile Anorak replace your soft shell AND rain Jacket then?
S2H winter class 2026 observations and lessons learned
- Thread starter Formidilosus
- Start date
ColPenguin
Lil-Rokslider
Is a salami roll similar to a WV-style pepperoni roll, the salami meat just baked into bread dough?
yes
@prm
@Tommyhaak and @cubdriver84d have the hilltrek anoraks and seem to really like them. Hilltrek does make jackets too. Alpkit makes jackets and anoraks as well. I have their ranger jacket, its a fantastic jacket. Except the forearms are a little tight when you start getting into heavy winter layering.
eta - looks like alpkit is out of the ventile game
@Tommyhaak and @cubdriver84d have the hilltrek anoraks and seem to really like them. Hilltrek does make jackets too. Alpkit makes jackets and anoraks as well. I have their ranger jacket, its a fantastic jacket. Except the forearms are a little tight when you start getting into heavy winter layering.
eta - looks like alpkit is out of the ventile game
dreamingWest
WKR
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2017
- Messages
- 1,264
The Hilltreks look good enough. I'll have to pick one up and see where it fits in my ridiculous collection of hunting clothes. Which would you guys recommend for say New Zealand mountains in May? Single, Double, Hybrid?
B_Reynolds_AK
WKR
As you can see here- not riding up in the back:
Looks like the Aziak Ridgeline & Tricer LP combo I left there got some use. Interested to know what your thoughts are on it now.
I'm cool with all that. I think I'd rather just accept death than do the rewarming drill though.
cubdriver84d
WKR
Is that Alpikit Ranger double ventile? I can't tell from the site (unless I'm missing it). My single ventlie anorak doesn't replace a rain jacket for me because you get wet slowly once it wets out. I have been considering trying one in double ventile though to see if it breathes similar to single. Also tempted to try some ventile pants..
cubdriver84d
WKR
My Bealach (single L35) basically serves the purpose of a light windbreaker or soft shell but performs way better. It has been plenty durable for me, but L34 and L24 should offer more durability at more weight. L34 is only slightly heavier than L35 based on what they told me. If you're wanting to replace a rain jacket too, I think you'd need to go with double ventile or their cotton analogy. Can't comment on how much breathability you lose with those compared to single ventile though.
This post should be pinned somewhere or made as an automated reply lol. Very well said!
OP
OP
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2014
- Messages
- 14,634
It is. Tripod is good, don’t like the head.
Of the people at the class that used it, that was the consensus.
Its a hybrid. Shoulders, hood, arms I think are double.
This is a good point, in general people should be aware of where they are going to be using these things. In my case it probably rains a bit more in Ak versus Wi or the inter mountain west.
jzeblaz
WKR
I know this is meant in jest, but it's not bad at all. Other than staying up late and having guys check to make sure you're okay, it's just an exercise and might be a good one to know. I don't even remember being actually cold at any point during the drill. Actually, I'm going to amend that. Having silt in your base layer is the worst part. 100%
BAKPAKR
WKR
All I can say is that you Western hunters must be some bada$$ SOBs. I had been thinking about a hunt out West but I was totally ignorant of the danger. I might have to reconsider that dream.
@Livinfree77, did the salami rolls look anything like
these pepperoni/pepperjack rolls?
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2016
- Messages
- 260
I’ll do a full video on the class eventually. I’ve got travel coming up in a few days so realistically it’ll be late next month before I can get that done. When I do it, I’ll focus on what was new this class. The rewarming drill. What I learned last time versus this time. What I actually practiced in between. What I didn’t. Some honest reflection there. For now, a few quick observations to add to all the above.
First, gear. The big puffy Form has been involved in developing is legit. Super comfortable in those conditions. also reflecting on the rewarming drills I’m starting to think fewer layers, but more substantial layers, might be the better play. I actually used two down layers for my puff layer. A lighter puffy under a bigger First Lite puffy. In my head, that should equal one big puffy. it doesn't. I think stacking them actually hurt me. You’ve got material between the down layers that water has to work through. I’ll dig into that more later, but it was noticeable.
On optics, I bounced around too much. I had my usual Revic LRF binos, the new Garmin rangefinder, the Revic BR4, and the stabilized sig spotter. had some interesting observations comparing them all when they are cold, in snowy conditions, etc...
The stabilized spotter has a real use case. Especially in time-sensitive situations. It’s fast. No tripod. You can get on target quick and use the magnification to see impacts. What it doesn’t do well is pick up trace. At least not in the conditions we were in. this was very noticeable to form as he went between it and his binos on a tripod. If I pulled the focus slightly off target, I could start to see trace again. So I think it’s a depth of focus thing. glass quality difference probably also plays in. I need to try on animals... seeing impacts on rocks is easy but sometimes trace is all you actually pickup on animals.
Rifles. I shot several variations. My Tikka .223 in the synthetic Rokstock. My .223 in the full wood Rokstock from Mike at Alpine Rifles. Form’s 16-inch Tikka in the wood Rokstock Lite. And the Seekins Havak Element in 6.5 PRC. I intended to shoot the Endex as well but just didn’t get to it. would have liked to see its performance in the snow.
If I’m just moving through the woods and everything else is equal, the handiness of the Rokstock Lite in .223 is hard to beat. It feels awesome. I also really liked shooting the full wood Rokstock. I’m still torn on what I want long term on my .223. Wood Lite or standard wood. The one disadvantage I see with the lite just is what it is, a tradeoff... You have to be very cautious of how short/thin that forearm is. Even on my pack, jammed pretty far forward, I found I'd inadvertently be getting barrel contact every once in awhile. Something you would have to be aware of if using it.
On the Seekins, Form showed above. I was surprised how little snow it took to be a problem. I could have beat on it and probably got the lugs to lock and bolt down... but seemed high risk. might not be able to extract... down a rifle. it's a real issue. When that rifle is oiled and clean, I actually really like the action. But the minute it gets dry or gets some grit in it, it feels rough, fast. I joked with Form about it, but I do have to be transparent that the rifle is brand new.
One thing that is clear to me now. The higher comb on the Rokstock makes a difference. Especially with muzzle flip. It was very noticeable compared to the traditional butted stock. I have the same cartridge in a tikka/synthetic-rokstock that I shot quite a bit the week before the class. More muzzle rise in the traditional stock, noticeable. In prone, once you’re used to that high comb, other stocks almost feel like they’re trying to slip under you. like dive down into your armpit.
Lower body layering during the rewarming drill did great. Badlands merino base and the Kifaru Torlander pant. I dried out way faster than I expected. Not sure if that’s because I didn’t soak through or because that system just works. The Badlands base has a nylon blend in the hip and crotch area, roughly 60/40. That may be part of it. Up top was different. I had a Kifaru lightweight merino hoodie, Argali grid fleece, Brooks down sweater, and the First Lite Chamberlin. I stayed wetter than expected. Even my base layer stayed pretty damp most of the drill. That tells me something wasn’t right. Maybe too many layers. Maybe not thin enough at the base. My guess right now is one very thin base layer and one big puffy might work better than stacking multiple pieces. Regardless, once in my bag I was not cold at all for multiple hours.
The argali bag didn't do as well as the zen bivys but it did well from my perspective. I think that was because Brad is using a lot of material in his zero degree bags. more than most zero degree bags. I do have a zen bivy, but I am a 100% back sleeper. Given the slight additional complication of zen bivy setup, I am still using a mummy style bag as long as the shoulders are wide enough, like the argali. if I slept at all on my side, I'd be a zen bivy fan boy.
The Steiger mukluks are great. Warmest my feet have ever been in those conditions for that long.
I’ve always relied on Cowichan sweaters in cold weather. I like the weight and the warmth around the neck. I didn’t use it in the rewarming drill because I think it would have turned into a soaked mop and been useless the rest of the trip. But for general cold, I’m still a fan. maybe don't look as cool as the Atlantic ranger sweater guys... ha!
On the Shoot2Hunt scope, I used it a lot. The biggest surprise was how much you use the box in that THLR reticle. At first you think it’s annoying. Then you start relying on it constantly. When I went back to my Nightforce, I missed the box. You end up using that edge for half-mil references all the time. something intuitive about it for aiming also. I'd like to play with the illumination more. it's a single dot, keeps things incredibly clean but I had one night where I was trying to hold wind against a dark background and I couldn't see the reticle hashes. It crossed my mind that maybe that was a negative. But then you wonder really if anyone should actually be holding wind on animals the last 3 minutes of shooting light anyways? also, if I could see the hashes would that wash out my ability to see the target. something I need to test side by side... no judgment yet, but a thought.
Overall, just like the last course. Incredible instructors. Great group of guys. very capable shooters. Learned a ton. Food was epic. Good times.
First, gear. The big puffy Form has been involved in developing is legit. Super comfortable in those conditions. also reflecting on the rewarming drills I’m starting to think fewer layers, but more substantial layers, might be the better play. I actually used two down layers for my puff layer. A lighter puffy under a bigger First Lite puffy. In my head, that should equal one big puffy. it doesn't. I think stacking them actually hurt me. You’ve got material between the down layers that water has to work through. I’ll dig into that more later, but it was noticeable.
On optics, I bounced around too much. I had my usual Revic LRF binos, the new Garmin rangefinder, the Revic BR4, and the stabilized sig spotter. had some interesting observations comparing them all when they are cold, in snowy conditions, etc...
The stabilized spotter has a real use case. Especially in time-sensitive situations. It’s fast. No tripod. You can get on target quick and use the magnification to see impacts. What it doesn’t do well is pick up trace. At least not in the conditions we were in. this was very noticeable to form as he went between it and his binos on a tripod. If I pulled the focus slightly off target, I could start to see trace again. So I think it’s a depth of focus thing. glass quality difference probably also plays in. I need to try on animals... seeing impacts on rocks is easy but sometimes trace is all you actually pickup on animals.
Rifles. I shot several variations. My Tikka .223 in the synthetic Rokstock. My .223 in the full wood Rokstock from Mike at Alpine Rifles. Form’s 16-inch Tikka in the wood Rokstock Lite. And the Seekins Havak Element in 6.5 PRC. I intended to shoot the Endex as well but just didn’t get to it. would have liked to see its performance in the snow.
If I’m just moving through the woods and everything else is equal, the handiness of the Rokstock Lite in .223 is hard to beat. It feels awesome. I also really liked shooting the full wood Rokstock. I’m still torn on what I want long term on my .223. Wood Lite or standard wood. The one disadvantage I see with the lite just is what it is, a tradeoff... You have to be very cautious of how short/thin that forearm is. Even on my pack, jammed pretty far forward, I found I'd inadvertently be getting barrel contact every once in awhile. Something you would have to be aware of if using it.
On the Seekins, Form showed above. I was surprised how little snow it took to be a problem. I could have beat on it and probably got the lugs to lock and bolt down... but seemed high risk. might not be able to extract... down a rifle. it's a real issue. When that rifle is oiled and clean, I actually really like the action. But the minute it gets dry or gets some grit in it, it feels rough, fast. I joked with Form about it, but I do have to be transparent that the rifle is brand new.
One thing that is clear to me now. The higher comb on the Rokstock makes a difference. Especially with muzzle flip. It was very noticeable compared to the traditional butted stock. I have the same cartridge in a tikka/synthetic-rokstock that I shot quite a bit the week before the class. More muzzle rise in the traditional stock, noticeable. In prone, once you’re used to that high comb, other stocks almost feel like they’re trying to slip under you. like dive down into your armpit.
Lower body layering during the rewarming drill did great. Badlands merino base and the Kifaru Torlander pant. I dried out way faster than I expected. Not sure if that’s because I didn’t soak through or because that system just works. The Badlands base has a nylon blend in the hip and crotch area, roughly 60/40. That may be part of it. Up top was different. I had a Kifaru lightweight merino hoodie, Argali grid fleece, Brooks down sweater, and the First Lite Chamberlin. I stayed wetter than expected. Even my base layer stayed pretty damp most of the drill. That tells me something wasn’t right. Maybe too many layers. Maybe not thin enough at the base. My guess right now is one very thin base layer and one big puffy might work better than stacking multiple pieces. Regardless, once in my bag I was not cold at all for multiple hours.
The argali bag didn't do as well as the zen bivys but it did well from my perspective. I think that was because Brad is using a lot of material in his zero degree bags. more than most zero degree bags. I do have a zen bivy, but I am a 100% back sleeper. Given the slight additional complication of zen bivy setup, I am still using a mummy style bag as long as the shoulders are wide enough, like the argali. if I slept at all on my side, I'd be a zen bivy fan boy.
The Steiger mukluks are great. Warmest my feet have ever been in those conditions for that long.
I’ve always relied on Cowichan sweaters in cold weather. I like the weight and the warmth around the neck. I didn’t use it in the rewarming drill because I think it would have turned into a soaked mop and been useless the rest of the trip. But for general cold, I’m still a fan. maybe don't look as cool as the Atlantic ranger sweater guys... ha!
On the Shoot2Hunt scope, I used it a lot. The biggest surprise was how much you use the box in that THLR reticle. At first you think it’s annoying. Then you start relying on it constantly. When I went back to my Nightforce, I missed the box. You end up using that edge for half-mil references all the time. something intuitive about it for aiming also. I'd like to play with the illumination more. it's a single dot, keeps things incredibly clean but I had one night where I was trying to hold wind against a dark background and I couldn't see the reticle hashes. It crossed my mind that maybe that was a negative. But then you wonder really if anyone should actually be holding wind on animals the last 3 minutes of shooting light anyways? also, if I could see the hashes would that wash out my ability to see the target. something I need to test side by side... no judgment yet, but a thought.
Overall, just like the last course. Incredible instructors. Great group of guys. very capable shooters. Learned a ton. Food was epic. Good times.
All I can say is that you Western hunters must be some bada$$ SOBs. I had been thinking about a hunt out West but I was totally ignorant of the danger. I might have to reconsider that dream.
Jake Larsen
WKR
[mention]Formidilosus [/mention] [mention]Cliff Gray [/mention] Form I’ve seen you mention Duckworth a couple times. Cliff has made videos mentioning the Duckworth Powder Hoody. I’ve been using one since last season. Haven’t done a rewarming drill wearing it yet, but it’s done well as a mid layer in a pretty wide range of conditions for me. Thoughts on this vs the Ranger sweater?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Coopsdaddy
WKR
I have the same combo.
What do you think a better option would be in this weight range?
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