S2H Scope Interest

[The Guide]

Neither angular measurement is "wrong". Neither measurement is "right". Both will allow shooters to make precision shots and adjustment on targets to ranges further than people can accurately shoot to due to skill level and/or accuracy potential of their firearm/ammunition. MILS is the better platform for people engaging multiple targets at various distances from the same position in my experience. Not that it can't be done with MOA but for speed and ease of mental simplicity, MILS is where it is at for me and my mind when speed is a factor.

Jay

 

[Rhettster433]

Out of all the forums i have been on this one is probably one of the most civil. Dont go to the Hide those guys are not very nice.

I am on the Hide too but have to limit what i look at to avoid being utterly disappointed in humanity. I only responded here because it seemed like these folks were good natured and potentially willing to take unsolicited advice as constructive and not throw a tantrum. We start small with good people and slowly show the absolute idiots who roam the earth the proper way to go about things. I hope if i ever say something horribly insensitive or stupid yall are willing to call me out also. Sometimes in the moment we dont see the faults and it takes a third party to bring us back to objectivity.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

I am on the Hide too but have to limit what i look at to avoid being utterly disappointed in humanity. I only responded here because it seemed like these folks were good natured and potentially willing to take unsolicited advice as constructive and not throw a tantrum. We start small with good people and slowly show the absolute idiots who roam the earth the proper way to go about things. I hope if i ever say something horribly insensitive or stupid yall are willing to call me out also. Sometimes in the moment we dont see the faults and it takes a third party to bring us back to objectivity.

The better response to most of the “arguments” around here is the “old man yells at clouds” meme. Or, just ignore it. Let someone be wrong on the internet. But that’s pretty boring and does cause problems down the road.

I appreciate your warning shot to keep it civil. Self-policing is much better than having to heavily moderate a place.

In my experience, this place is far more civil than most places on the Internet. Back around the time you were born, I used to be a moderator on a forum for a history-based computer game and it was a real mess compared with this.

 

[Lionheart]

I have never shot with a mils scope, but am looking to het one to try soon. This whole argument seems no different than arguing what the best caliber is for a specific game animal. They all(within reason, dont take a 22lr to hunt moose) work well enough. Some maybe give an advantage but it is enough to warrant buying new guns and selling old ones when you are just scraping by already. If it is no problem for you to spend thousands and make the switch, have at it. But telling everyone else that they need to switch in order to become better shooters is dumb. Practice with what you have, save up some, and switch when you can. Or, if you are not hunting at extreme varying ranges(like me in alabama where all shots are between 50-200 yards) then dont switch at all because it doesn’t matter. But as a young man that is trying to learn more about long range shooting and determining where to start, all i see is a giant pissing contest between stubborn mules. Learn from others, or dont. But arguing is not profitable for anyone. A spirited debate can be but come on guys. I am 21 and shouldnt have to tell you to grow up

If you are truly who and what you say you are…21, young, inexperienced and wanting to learn…then perhaps you should listen, read , learn and EXPERIENCE much more before you get on your high horse and lecture the adults in the room?
Or you just be an old troll…jury is still out for me whippersnapper.
Perhaps I’m wrong and you are just a well-intentioned, educated, (maybe slightly pampered?) young man with the inflated ego that sometimes goes with youth.
But that old mantra comes to mind as I consider your post:
“I ain’t sayin it’s right or it’s wrong…I’m just sayin it’s sticking in my craw”
Most of the men in this forum have scars older than you.

 

[Rhettster433]

If you are truly who and what you say you are…21, young, inexperienced and wanting to learn…then perhaps you should listen, read , learn and EXPERIENCE much more before you get on your high horse and lecture the adults in the room?
Or you just be an old troll…jury is still out for me whippersnapper.
Perhaps I’m wrong and you are just a well-intentioned, educated, (maybe slightly pampered?) young man with the inflated ego that sometimes goes with youth.
But that old mantra comes to mind as I consider your post:
“I ain’t sayin it’s right or it’s wrong…I’m just sayin it’s sticking in my craw”
Most of the men in this forum have scars older than you.

True. And if you read my other responses you will see that i acknowledged my “speech” was likely unwanted and going to be ignored. I am in fact 21 years old but i lack this “ego” you refer to. I simply pointed out something i thought was wrong/uncalled for after spending hours reading this whole thread. If my post was that uncalled for then i can take that and will likely not interfere with other threads that go down the dame road. I enjoy learning from those older than me and using their knowledge to increase mine instead of having to make all the same mistakes myself. However i do have a strong set of morals i will not waver from and will tell anyone who will listen if i think they are in the wrong. Assuming i think they contain the mental capacity to have a decent conversation about differences and i dont expect them to lose their mind because “THAT YOUNG PERSON STOOD UP TO ME. HE MUST BE SHAMED NOW” which i have gotten in person before. I assumed we are all competent adults and could have a constructive conversation with differing opinions. And many of you have reciprocated that sentiment which i appreciate.

 

[KurtR]

I am on the Hide too but have to limit what i look at to avoid being utterly disappointed in humanity. I only responded here because it seemed like these folks were good natured and potentially willing to take unsolicited advice as constructive and not throw a tantrum. We start small with good people and slowly show the absolute idiots who roam the earth the proper way to go about things. I hope if i ever say something horribly insensitive or stupid yall are willing to call me out also. Sometimes in the moment we dont see the faults and it takes a third party to bring us back to objectivity.

That was said tongue and cheek I have been on the hide since 08 and it was better than but not in a nice and nurturing way full of alot of type a. I rather enjoyed the straight to the point and no bs before it got big and Frank didnt suffer any fools. You could have an opinion but it better be able to be backed up with experience and results

 

[WRO]

True. And if you read my other responses you will see that i acknowledged my “speech” was likely unwanted and going to be ignored. I am in fact 21 years old but i lack this “ego” you refer to. I simply pointed out something i thought was wrong/uncalled for after spending hours reading this whole thread. If my post was that uncalled for then i can take that and will likely not interfere with other threads that go down the dame road. I enjoy learning from those older than me and using their knowledge to increase mine instead of having to make all the same mistakes myself. However i do have a strong set of morals i will not waver from and will tell anyone who will listen if i think they are in the wrong. Assuming i think they contain the mental capacity to have a decent conversation about differences and i dont expect them to lose their mind because “THAT YOUNG PERSON STOOD UP TO ME. HE MUST BE SHAMED NOW” which i have gotten in person before. I assumed we are all competent adults and could have a constructive conversation with differing opinions. And many of you have reciprocated that sentiment which i appreciate.

You barely have enough experience to know to wipe front to back, your opinions on shooting don’t have enough basis in practice or reality. If I wanted dating advice for picking up chicks at a family reunion, I’d ask a guy from Alabama, if I wanted real world long range scope and durability advice I’ll stick with the crew here.

 

[Lionheart]

True. And if you read my other responses you will see that i acknowledged my “speech” was likely unwanted and going to be ignored. I am in fact 21 years old but i lack this “ego” you refer to. I simply pointed out something i thought was wrong/uncalled for after spending hours reading this whole thread. If my post was that uncalled for then i can take that and will likely not interfere with other threads that go down the dame road. I enjoy learning from those older than me and using their knowledge to increase mine instead of having to make all the same mistakes myself. However i do have a strong set of morals i will not waver from and will tell anyone who will listen if i think they are in the wrong. Assuming i think they contain the mental capacity to have a decent conversation about differences and i dont expect them to lose their mind because “THAT YOUNG PERSON STOOD UP TO ME. HE MUST BE SHAMED NOW” which i have gotten in person before. I assumed we are all competent adults and could have a constructive conversation with differing opinions. And many of you have reciprocated that sentiment which i appreciate.

Well Rhettster you are to be commended for your “strong morals”. I guess.
Hopefully they are good morals.
The whole “telling anyone who will listen if I think they are in the wrong”…well young man I hope for your sake you will grow out of that attitude and be more mature about needing to correct others, especially your elders, when “you think” they are wrong lol. Feeling the need to constantly correct others and preach them sermons about their perceived shortcomings? My 8 year old grandson is going that stage right now lol. He knows everything and is happy to tell anyone who will listen lol.
He particularly enjoys correcting everyone in the house and pointing out when they are wrong. Even when they are right lol.
Just try to hold your tongue a little and realize it’s not really your job to correct everyone and everything all the time?
You will be able to make and keep more friends that way.
Welcome to the slide. MILS are the way.
Oh, and that ego thing? Just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean it’s not there.

 

[Marbles]

Stuff like the above is part of reality that a lot of people won't put any weight on.

That stuff makes valid arguments not to switch. It cannot be confused with the invalid statement that the two systems are equal.

Put differently.

Is it worth switching from MOA to MRAD? Well it depends.

Is MOA just as good as MRAD? No.

If I owned -0- riflescopes and was starting today I'd likely go mrads. But the logistical cost of switching in reality far outweighs any theoretical benefit.

This is the point, if starting out, get MRAD and be done with it.

But I *am* worried about the learning curve for learning to manage different systems on my *other* rifles until I switch all of them out, which could literally take the rest of my life.

I wouldn't want to switch between the two systems and as such don't purchase MOA scopes unless it will be set and forget. I certainly am not saying someone has to change to mils, and I don't see anyone else saying it has to be done.

A similar comparison is 30-30s kill well, no one needs to replace a 30-30 if it does everything they want. But, if someone must buy a rifle, I'm recommending a Creedmoor as outside of using old cordite based powders it is better, even if only marginally.

There's a huge groupthink aspect here

Just because you have a group that thinks similarly, that doesn't make it groupthink. There is not much actual groupthink on here, most of us did not come to our conclusion by seeking harmony over results. Plenty of us started out arguing against various things and in trying to prove it wrong, we changed our mind. That, by definition, is not groupthink.

 

[Rhettster433]

You barely have enough experience to know to wipe front to back, your opinions on shooting don’t have enough basis in practice or reality. If I wanted dating advice for picking up chicks at a family reunion, I’d ask a guy from Alabama, if I wanted real world long range scope and durability advice I’ll stick with the crew here.

I never gave any opinions on shooting so i am not sure what you mean. Also, this is exactly the kind of degrading talk i mentioned earlier. I both am disappointed and thankful. You proved my point exactly. I simply wanted to give my two cents on the debate (not the differences in mils and moa but in the lack of respect for one another) and got attacked for it by a few people. If my two cents is enough to make you assume i found my wife (yes i am married) at a family reunion then so be it. You can think whatever you like. However it does not discount anything i said

Well Rhettster you are to be commended for your “strong morals”. I guess.
Hopefully they are good morals.
The whole “telling anyone who will listen if I think they are in the wrong”…well young man I hope for your sake you will grow out of that attitude and be more mature about needing to correct others, especially your elders, when “you think” they are wrong lol. Feeling the need to constantly correct others and preach them sermons about their perceived shortcomings? My 8 year old grandson is going that stage right now lol. He knows everything and is happy to tell anyone who will listen lol.
He particularly enjoys correcting everyone in the house and pointing out when they are wrong. Even when they are right lol.
Just try to hold your tongue a little and realize it’s not really your job to correct everyone and everything all the time?
You will be able to make and keep more friends that way.
Welcome to the slide. MILS are the way.
Oh, and that ego thing? Just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean it’s not there.

You are right. Maybe i was too quick to throw my opinion in before properly determining the audience that would receive it. I did not word that correctly to get my thoughts across. I do not just throw my two cents in everywhere i possibly can. I do however give it where i think it is best invested. I did not give it to try and put anyone down or start this back and forth. Simply wanted to point out what i have seen all over this forum and thought you all would at least see the merit in my attempt. Some did and said as much which is appreciated. I do apologize if i overstepped and i appreciate the respectful criticism. I will now respectfully back away and avoid posting anything of the sort in the future. At least until i have enough experience that i might be taken seriously. It saddens me to see that the mindset of “young=ignorant/wrong” has caused so much discourse in the world.

 

[nm.otter]

I would love it if this thread could be carefully split into two by a mod.

 

[betelgeuse]

I would love it if this thread could be carefully split into two by a mod.

Reminds me of a meeting at work.

 

[Kaleb]

so it wasn't expierence it was ego and entitlement that led the lad to shoot off his mouth

that will help

 

[Marbles]

True. And if you read my other responses you will see that i acknowledged my “speech” was likely unwanted and going to be ignored. I am in fact 21 years old but i lack this “ego” you refer to. I simply pointed out something i thought was wrong/uncalled for after spending hours reading this whole thread. If my post was that uncalled for then i can take that and will likely not interfere with other threads that go down the dame road. I enjoy learning from those older than me and using their knowledge to increase mine instead of having to make all the same mistakes myself. However i do have a strong set of morals i will not waver from and will tell anyone who will listen if i think they are in the wrong. Assuming i think they contain the mental capacity to have a decent conversation about differences and i dont expect them to lose their mind because “THAT YOUNG PERSON STOOD UP TO ME. HE MUST BE SHAMED NOW” which i have gotten in person before. I assumed we are all competent adults and could have a constructive conversation with differing opinions. And many of you have reciprocated that sentiment which i appreciate.

You started with trying to shame others, the entire reason you brought your age up was to do that.

Don't mention your age, it doesn't matter. The old like to use their age to claim experience, but quality experience doesn't automatically come with age.

Speak from experience and be honest about the amount you have on a topic and/or where your information comes from. That matters, it holds true for old and young alike.

Be specific in criticism, your vague instructions to behave like adults really has no value because life is complex and adults don't automatically behave well, nor is one pattern of behavior correct in all situations. Unfortunately adults like to use the same vagueness to avoid intellectually engaging children and shame them into compliance, so you probably learned the strategy from adults not behaving like adults themselves.

 

[Kaleb]

I almost told him shooting is full of bullshit and to invest in some emotional hip waders.

I also found it odd that he is looking at getting started and doesn't understand the importance of acknowledging that one system is better, even if only marginally. It gets expensive learning everything for ones self, either in dollars or in mental contortions.

Or the lack of acknowledgement that what he calls arguing might actually be spirited debate (I don't recall any name calling).

Regardless, the whole situation is funny as the stated purpose of this thread was for OP to put everything that matters at the top and get polling data; so despite OP being offendedat discussion and apparently wanting no substantial posts (edit: reasonably annoyed at seeing what should be a dead horse rise to be beaten again), anything that bumps the thread to the top helps it gather data.

The "I'll take one" posts are vapid and pointless given the pole.

lots of words here but the ill take one isn't

 

[Rhettster433]

You started with trying to shame others, the entire reason you brought your age up was to do that.

Don't mention your age, it doesn't matter. The old like to use their age to claim experience, but quality experience doesn't automatically come with age.

Speak from experience and be honest about the amount you have on a topic and/or where your information comes from. That matters, it holds true for old and young alike.

Be specific in criticism, your vague instructions to behave like adults really has no value because life is complex and adults don't automatically behave well, nor is one pattern of behavior correct in all situations. Unfortunately adults like to use the same vagueness to avoid intellectually engaging children and shame them into compliance, so you probably learned the strategy from adults not behaving like adults themselves.

Fair point. Was not intending to shame anyone but i see how it came across that way. Lesson learned. That puts a new perspective on how i should receive criticism as well. I tend to assume the best of people and i guess i thought others would do the same of me. Thank you for the lesson even if hard learned

 

[Marbles]

Most of the men in this forum have scars older than you.

My deployment coffee cup is older than him, does that count?

Should I admit that? I mean, I was just a sailor and only deployed on ships, but having a deployment coffee cup makes them sound so soft.

Edit: I'm also an idiot and messed up simple math. My coffee cup is not that old.

 

[Kaleb]

he comes from a background of his opinion matters and he used many words to voice his opinion. He did it politely. He's not to blame here he thinks what he says will matter

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Fair point. Was not intending to shame anyone but i see how it came across that way. Lesson learned. That puts a new perspective on how i should receive criticism as well. I tend to assume the best of people and i guess i thought others would do the same of me. Thank you for the lesson even if hard learned

Dude, stop trying to play the victim card. That’s some shameful shit.

If there’s one thing I’ve learned on the Internet, you should always respond with memes, emoticons, or firsthand experience, not lectures. See what I did there?

 

[Marbles]

lots of words here but the ill take one isn't

I tend to be verbose. I actually tried hard to shorten it up . @Chris in TN keeps me in good company.

Also been home sick, with the family sick, so RS is babysitting me @fngTony