S2H Scope Interest

[Chris in TN]

A scientific approach would be, "wow, all of these people who have used both and switched are data points. I shall use them in my process."

You are jumping up and down and saying, "but my math says....!!!!!!"

Are anecdotes data?

 

[dårlig jeger]

Are anecdotes data?

They are observations. Which are data. You asked for psychological reasons, they are right here in this thread (and probably 100 others).

Look, I get that mils are intimidating for someone from the outside. I can assure you, the only thing you need to be afraid of is the scopes in the classifieds are more expensive.

 

[MuleyFever]

I thought this thread would be a boering poll with an endless list of "I'll buy one" posts. Boy was I wrong.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Interesting. How low are we talking? My current pick would be a SWFA UL at 9.5 ounces, unless something better at a similar weight comes along....

I’m very interested in that as well. My two lightest scopes are the SWFA Ultralight and the Trijicon 3-9x40 (~14 ounces). Both are reliable enough, but neither is great for dialing and both are MOA. I may be setting my sights too high, but a reliable 12-16-ounce 2-8x36 dialable scope in mils would be amazing to me.

 

[MuleyFever]

@Formidilosus has anyone said what the availability would look like? How many scopes they can produce at what intervals ?

 

[Chris in TN]

What's your workflow for making a shot that requires dialing and correcting for wind? That would be one place to start in order to have a real discussion. Specific advantages depend on how you're doing things. Are you ranging and reading off a dope chart or maybe your rangefinder gives you drop?

Generally speaking - see target, sit, range, get into position (my slow part) while thinking about wind speed indicators. Guesstimate wind. Dial elevation based on range, hold wind. When in doubt on wind, hold half my best guess.

To copy what I just put into another post:

Range 480, round to 5, that's a 2moa hold.
Crosswind is medium?, cut that in half, 1moa. Hold 1moa, shoot.

Or

Crosswind is near full value, hold 2moa, shoot.
Or

Crosswind is light, bracket between the 0 and 1moa marks. Shoot.

But, again, I live in a low-wind world and the times I've hunted out west have all been low-wind environments. I don't hunt Wyoming pronghorn or late season migrations where I might be shooting at a cow in the wide open at midday in the snow in a higher wind. My shots are almost entirely early/late when wind is minimal and I actually have to work to make practice trips to the range in March when I actually get to shoot in the wind.

But when I do shoot in the wind, the 'estimate wind speed' part of the equation, probably takes longer than all the other factors put together. There's no way I could even begin to compare the time it takes to get a grasp on the wind, to the time it takes to hold for that wind. The hold is almost an afterthought.

(Again, unless I'm shooting at 600+, when I calculate as finely as I can. I shoot to 500 at home, and can't go further (maybe 510 prone). The local range allows 600-750-1000-1250 and I usually focus on 600 and 750 when I go there alone).

The vast, vast majority of my shots are in light wind. I've actually noted the wind blowing here at home in the summer and stopped work, grabbed a rifle, and went to the range, just to get some wind practice. It usually dies before I get there, but I am not exaggerating at all when I say that I have noted wind and headed to the range just to get the practice. I can't make it blow.

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus has anyone said what the availability would look like? How many scopes they can produce at what intervals ?

Numbers are pretty open- within reason. But the order has to be placed, and then 6 months later they show up.

 

[Chris in TN]

They are observations. Which are data. You asked for psychological reasons, they are right here in this thread (and probably 100 others).

Look, I get that mils are intimidating for someone from the outside. I can assure you, the only thing you need to be afraid of is the scopes in the classifieds are more expensive.

Such observations should be weighed, not just counted.

And I'm going to weight the guy least who said 'man I tried this one time and instantly got way way better'. The math for typical winds at typical hunting distances isn't *that* hard. If the delta is real, it's small, and not going to be day/night different.

 

[MontyMontana]

Generally speaking - see target, sit, range, get into position (my slow part) while thinking about wind speed indicators. Guesstimate wind. Dial elevation based on range, hold wind. When in doubt on wind, hold half my best guess.

To copy what I just put into another post:

Range 480, round to 5, that's a 2moa hold.
Crosswind is medium?, cut that in half, 1moa. Hold 1moa, shoot.

Or

Crosswind is near full value, hold 2moa, shoot.
Or

Crosswind is light, bracket between the 0 and 1moa marks. Shoot.

But, again, I live in a low-wind world and the times I've hunted out west have all been low-wind environments. I don't hunt Wyoming pronghorn or late season migrations where I might be shooting at a cow in the wide open at midday in the snow in a higher wind. My shots are almost entirely early/late when wind is minimal and I actually have to work to make practice trips to the range in March when I actually get to shoot in the wind.

But when I do shoot in the wind, the 'estimate wind speed' part of the equation, probably takes longer than all the other factors put together. There's no way I could even begin to compare the time it takes to get a grasp on the wind, to the time it takes to hold for that wind. The hold is almost an afterthought.

(Again, unless I'm shooting at 600+, when I calculate as finely as I can. I shoot to 500 at home, and can't go further (maybe 510 prone). The local range allows 600-750-1000-1250 and I usually focus on 600 and 750 when I go there alone).

The vast, vast majority of my shots are in light wind. I've actually noted the wind blowing here at home in the summer and stopped work, grabbed a rifle, and went to the range, just to get some wind practice. It usually dies before I get there, but I am not exaggerating at all when I say that I have noted wind and headed to the range just to get the practice. I can't make it blow.

So a 2 MOA hold at 500 works for most calibers shooting any bullet at average MV? That's rhetorical by the way..


Oh rhetorical means to emphasize a point, rather than to elicit an answer....

 

[Chris in TN]

So a 2 MOA hold at 500 works for most calibers shooting any bullet at average MV? That's rhetorical by the way..


Oh rhetorical means to emphasize a point, rather than to elicit an answer....

Unfortunately my answer kills your attempt at rhetoric.

2moa/500 is akin to your 7mph number. It's going to be load-dependent. As I acknowledged earlier. You really should note such things so you don't attempt to make arguments that actually make your side look worse.

 

[solarshooter]

A MPBR zero is more efficient

You can dial 1 mil and walk around like that. Easy 300yd zero. So I don't see where you're going with this argument...

I'd argue that it's less efficient - because instead of reading the yardage and interpolating it,

It works for intermediate yardages to the tenth. 347yds = 1.5mils, 382yds = 1.8mils. If anything, you are "eyeballing" 50% or 80% between your turret marks, whereas I'm dialing to a precise mark.

Range 480, round to 5, that's a 2moa hold.
Crosswind is medium, cut that in half, 1moa. Hold 1moa, shoot.

This is sort of cheating since this example uses the range at which your base is defined. If I said 320yds instead, you have to do an additional mental math operation relative to mil wind method. Example:

Range 320, that's 3/5 of 500, so 2 * 3/5 = uhhhhh, 6/5, call it 1moa base.

vs

Range 320, base 0.3.

Which is easier?

 

[Formidilosus]

The math for typical winds at typical hunting distances isn't *that* hard. If the delta is real, it's small, and not going to be day/night different.

How would you know? You literally just wrote paragraphs about how you have no idea, no experience, and don’t do what is being discussed.

Just stop.

No one cares what someone who be their own admission, has no experience and no understanding, thinks. No one wants to engage with you or explain it because it has been hashed out ad nauseam, and you are acting like a JA.

 

[Wprinkle]

Unfortunately my answer kills your attempt at rhetoric.

2moa/500 is akin to your 7mph number. It's going to be load-dependent. As I acknowledged earlier. You really should note such things so you don't attempt to make arguments that actually make your side look worse.

There is nothing "our side" can say to look worse than what you have represented for "your side."

 

[hibernation]

Go to BLM, and place a 10” gong. Get all your shooting gear on your back, and start at 0yds from the gong.

Set a 1min timer and start hiking away from the gong. When it beeps stop hiking, build your position, and shoot the target. Then reset the timer and keep hiking away from the gong. Stop when you start missing, and record your overall time and distance.

Dude, this is great. I'm putting that into the rotation.

 

[Kaleb]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but a larger zoom range surely equals more weight, more moving parts, more bulk? We've all been told by the "experts", even the ones who are developing this scope, that for hunting, a top end magnification about 9 is not necessary. A 18x zoom with a 44mm obj bell is also going to have a very small FOV. So if you want all that jazz just to be S2H cool, have at it.

yes you get it. I'm just wanting to spend a grand to be cool to a bunch of strangers who are also guys who most I will never meet. That's the logic I would expect from what you decided to type and post.

 

[solarshooter]

Dude, this is great. I'm putting that into the rotation.

Added detail, put yourself on a 30s-1min timer to shoot. And walk side to side, up and down hills, as much variation as you can to get different shooting positions, ranges, wind directions, target presentations.

 

[HuntHarder]

My dad shoots MOA and he will out shoot your dad, shooting MILS.

Who gives AF!? Moa dudes got left out. I am MOA, but I'll add this to my stable and give it ago. The actual shooting part of the way I hunt will be completely unprofessional affected by the switch. I don't shoot quick shots at long range, I have no problems letting animals go, if the shot feels rushed. I hunt more than most, so no big deal. I range, get my solution, dial my scope, and hold windage. Pretty damn simple really.

I just gotta remember to switch my binos over to mils when using this scope and moa for all my others. All my buddies are also moa, so MOA when I'm spotting/ helping them too. The process doesn't change with my style of hunting.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Numbers are pretty open- within reason. But the order has to be placed, and then 6 months later they show up.

So, understanding that this is still in early stages… if all the scopes sell out on release, there might be a six-month delay before more are available? That would be awful for all concerned.

With the timing of hunting season, I think it is critical to have the scope on the market and in early adopter’s hands NLT September 1, but August 1 would be better. A scope that doesn’t hit the market until January 2027, might as well not hit the market until June 2027 (tax refund season).

That seems like an excellent argument for a pre-sale for the initial release, so that S2H can gauge demand and order rolling drops on a monthly basis.

For instance, if S2H sells 1000 scopes via pre-sale, with delivery in August 2026, they can plan to have another 1000 available for immediate purchase on September, October, November, and December with 500/month thereafter until things begin to take off (hunting seasons and Christmas will be largely over by January 2027). I’m not a businessman, but as long as S2H always has a healthy supply from August through December, I think they will be fine.

Better open that pre-sale on February 1, 2026.

 

[bielenbm]

There is nothing "our side" can say to look worse than what you have represented for "your side."

Haha dang it, you guys are really making it hard not to want to switch to mils… I just wish it wouldn’t cost me so much to do it..

 

[Chris in TN]

There is nothing "our side" can say to look worse than what you have represented for "your side."

I was wondering if someone would come along and defend the guy on your side who tried to smear what I'd said.

I was clear up front that the 2moa was a hypothetical or example number. At no point did I ever paint it as some universal number that would apply to all loads. So the guy you're defending now, very self-assured of his 'rhetorical point'......ends up being an example of the reason I discount all of the people who tried some new math and were blown away by it. The guy was wrong, half the people on your side of this are cringing that he posted it, none will likely admit it, and it's now an object lesson in why 'bro I tried this and got way better overnight' is suspect.