S2H Scope Interest

[Chris in TN]

@Chris in TN,
I’m with you on it seeming dumb that guys will down-load their loads in order to hit quick drop. However, quick wind is a thing. And it isn’t near as clean when shooting in MOA. There’s a huge value to that.

I typed out a reply and deleted it.

I honestly don't want to argue. I don't want to be that guy. I'm just pretty danged happy to see an affordable scope with a reticle I can kill with at last light.

 

[Schmo]

I typed out a reply and deleted it.

I honestly don't want to argue. I don't want to be that guy. I'm just pretty danged happy to see an affordable scope with a reticle I can kill with at last light.

You’re good. I wasn’t trying to argue, I was just trying to have an honest discussion (probably better in another thread lol).

 

[Chris in TN]

And by the end of a couple days of instructing, they’re selling their MOA based scopes in favor of MIls. So in 3-5 days, they’re learning to be more efficient on a NEW system to them, than ALL of their previous years of experience behind MOA. If that doesn’t tell the story, idk what will.


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Again, you're pretending no instructor bias exists.

Instructors are people. People have biases. Full stop.

 

[solarshooter]

Most rifles will be maybe 2-3moa in a full value 10mph wind at 500 yards.

At 530 yards I dial one minute past the 500 blob on my turret and if I think the wind is 6mph I hold very close to the far edge of the intermediate (3-7 or 4-8mph depending on gun speed, etc) bracket (which means I'm close to a 2moa hold

In a single post, you've stated your hold would be 2-3moa at 500yds in a 10mph wind, but also 2moa at 530yds in a 6mph wind. No one on this thread is more confused about wind holds than you, which is the point all the MIL proponents are trying to make.

mild (0-4 mph) medium (4-8mph) and full (8-12mph) values

You are misusing the term "full value". "Full value" has to do with the angular component that is the crosswind. IE "full value" is a 90deg wind, "half value" is a 30deg wind, etc. Your method of creating low, med, hi wind levels and brackets is not a bad one, but you shouldn't call those "X value".

 

[schmidty3]

@Chris in TN,
I’m with you on it seeming dumb that guys will down-load their loads in order to hit quick drop. However, quick wind is a thing. And it isn’t near as clean when shooting in MOA. There’s a huge value to that.

Thats the biggest one.

The best shooters at NRL use "gun number" to approximate the wind holds. One doesnt always have the capability to get a good wind reading given different shooting positions and target directions and short time frames or get novel wind data input into a device.

Thats not intuitive in MOA as far as I can tell.

If a person just entirely relies/trusts their electronics to give an output then it doesnt matter what you use. But understanding your quick drop and gun number can sure help catch bad outputs easier.

 

[solarshooter]

I’m with you on it seeming dumb that guys will down-load their loads in order to hit quick drop.

DUMB is the point. Under stress and time pressure, I am DUMB. I will go full STUPID on my load to make it something I can shoot easier in a stressful situation. Hell, I just cut 6" off a 284 Win barrel to run a suppressor. I lost 150fps, a full mph wind number, and 100yds of terminal range. BUT, it's got way less recoil, is easier to spot impacts, more accurate, still an above average wind number, and a better match to quickdrop. And still lethal to my MER. Overall a much more shootable and hittable package. Now that's DUMB.

 

[JF_Idaho]

Good thing you guys finally decided to hash out this topic for the first time in a totally relevant thread.

 

[solarshooter]

Good thing you guys finally decided to hash out this topic for the first time in a totally relevant thread.

Yeah my bad I couldn't resist. I'm all done.

 

[rafiki]

Good thing you guys finally decided to hash out this topic for the first time in a totally relevant thread.

good news is it's finally solved and never has to be brought up again.
back on topic...i'm going to buy this scope whenever it's available.

 

[id_jon]

Good thing you guys finally decided to hash out this topic for the first time in a totally relevant thread.

 

[Chris in TN]

In a single post, you've stated your hold would be 2-3moa at 500yds in a 10mph wind, but also 2moa at 530yds in a 6mph wind. No one on this thread is more confused about wind holds than you, which is the point all the MIL proponents are trying to make.


You are misusing the term "full value". "Full value" has to do with the angular component that is the crosswind. IE "full value" is a 90deg wind, "half value" is a 30deg wind, etc. Your method of creating low, med, hi wind levels and brackets is not a bad one, but you shouldn't call those "X value".

3moa times 5.3/5 is roughly ~3.2, times 6/10, is roughly 1.91moa, or 2 moa. My number isn't wrong. The problem here is on your end. You tripped up on understanding what I said because you want me to be wrong. When I said 2-3 moa I was referring to a very broad guesstimate that is going to vary widely (honestly beyond the 2-3moa range I gave) depending on your load. So there's no confusion here, except your desire to be confused.

Second paragraph - I used 'full' in relation to/context of the bracket capacity. Perhaps I should have said 'high bracket'. You don't have to pretend to correct me on the 90 degree wind being 'full value'. I'm simply trying to explain how an moa bracket system would work. I used the term 'full' because honestly I believe that if the wind is past 10-12 mph you should be consulting your app data, not bracketing stuff and lobbing them in on a game animal. The 'full' capability of bracketing wind, for any system, on a game animal, without stopping and taking the time to make better calculations - or better yet getting closer or waiting for the wind to die - is going to be reached somewhere around 8-12mph of wind once you get into that 500-600 yard realm. Frankly we'd all be better off reducing those numbers.

 

[Chris in TN]

Thats the biggest one.

One doesnt always have the capability to get a good wind reading given different shooting positions and target directions and short time frames or get novel wind data input into a device.

Thats not intuitive in MOA as far as I can tell.

If a person just entirely relies/trusts their electronics to give an output then it doesnt matter what you use. But understanding your quick drop and gun number can sure help catch bad outputs easier.

Two things - first, if you truly can't read the wind, and need to make a first shot then correct on it for a follow up, that might be great in a game, but it has no place in hunting.

Second - yes, it's just as intuitive if you actually bothered to learn it that way. Having a 3-moa range of brackets for lo/med/hi isn't exactly rocket surgery precision. It's quick and dirty method that should only be used at ranges where quick and dirty is acceptable.

 

[Chris in TN]

Good thing you guys finally decided to hash out this topic for the first time in a totally relevant thread.

On the one hand, yeah. Guilty.

On the other hand, this isn't some official thread. It's just a tangent based on a question the guys selling the scopes never actually asked.

 

[Jake Larsen]

Good thing you guys finally decided to hash out this topic for the first time in a totally relevant thread.

I actually think it’s pretty relevant. Lots of guys are going to be interested in this scope that are coming from MOA based systems, and who haven’t been following along with S2H for the last few years. Seeing the discussion on this thread is going to get new eyes on the subject, in direct relationship to this particular scope/reticle.

As others have stated, this isn’t some sort of official poll. It’s just a tangential discussion.


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[Schmo]

Good thing you guys finally decided to hash out this topic for the first time in a totally relevant thread.

I guess I can make it relevant. I’m trying to get someone to see the way in mils, thus increasing interest in this scope. Yep, definitely relevant

 

[43.6N]

 

[43.6N]

 

[rafiki]

On the other hand, this isn't some official thread. It's just a tangent based on a question the guys selling the scopes never actually asked.

 

[schmidty3]

Two things - first, if you truly can't read the wind, and need to make a first shot then correct on it for a follow up, that might be great in a game, but it has no place in hunting.

Second - yes, it's just as intuitive if you actually bothered to learn it that way. Having a 3-moa range of brackets for lo/med/hi isn't exactly rocket surgery precision. It's quick and dirty method that should only be used at ranges where quick and dirty is acceptable.

The funny thing about games of all kinds is that they generally have the ulterior purpose of honing a skill for the "real thing". The more you play the better you get.

And the guys winning dont really miss that much.

How's a 3 moa bracket work at all ranges? How do you account for wind values?

 

[KHntr]

I showed a guy a picture of a 223/TMK kill on whitetail one time and he said “I don’t know if I believe that”.

The number of times that I have heard that when showing someone a pic of a dead moose or elk and a 223….