“Rokslide Special” .223 Training ammunition?

[Q_Sertorius]

I’ve never understood shooting groups, you don’t shoot a group at an animal. Either you hit where you’re aiming or you don’t. If you don’t, hopefully you can understand why and make a follow up shot.

Shooting a group of 5, 10 or whatever number of rounds seems silly to me. Especially when it’s done to check accuracy, which is usually done under preferable conditions. If you hit what you’re aiming at, under field conditions, I’d say you’re accurate.

Just my opinion.

The primary reason is to check the accuracy and precision of the rifle and ammunition, not the shooter.

How do you sight in a rifle, if not by shooting groups? Or pick loads to hand load?

 

[JoeK]

I guess I should explain my point of view/opinion on the “cheap training ammo.” First off, group size is so far down on my list of priorities for training, it’s almost out of sight. If the 100 yard prone 20 shot group is 4 inches, ok, now I know the capabilities of the system. (FYI pretty sure S2H has proven that most of us are in the 3-4 MOA group when put under time and pressure anyways) With a 4 MOA system I am still within a 17 inch Killzone out to 400 ish. Then I just practice field positions at random distances, or shoot the S2H drill, but always under time pressure. I focus on the things that matter like setting up the best and fastest shooting position I can for the conditions, wobble zone, breathing, trigger control, spotting my impact, reloading, adjustment and or follow-up shot. If all those things are improving and I am still within my 4 MOA group size and I executed the system and hopefully a little better than the last time, I know I am improving. When I’m faster, I’m steadier, and I’m withing the capabilities of my system I know I will be accurate. Then when I put the golden BB handloads or whatever in I am good to go. For me I have to train the things that make me accurate before I worry about my group size. If I have a sub MOA 100 round group from prone with no time pressure, but cant hit the water standing in a boat from any other position or under time and stress, then that sub MOA group is pointless. Point number two is, I’m currently on track to hit the 8K round mark this year and hommie needs to hit that number without donating a kidney to buy ammo…



Again this is my thinking and approach, I am sure there is a healthy dose of “blasting” coming in the comments haha

If it's working for you beefcake, you do you big dog. but here's how I see that.

If most of us can shoot let's say 4MOA under time from position with a 1.5 MOA rifle. Then aren't I going to shoot like 10-12MOA with a 4MOA capable rifle? That dispersion ( I won't say "group") is getting mighty big at just 200yds and how should I even know why, where or how I missed? It's like Spray and pray territory for me at that point...

Now I suck pretty bad, but if the system is capable of 1.5 MOA, and I can manage to shoot 5 MOA with it then at least I'm able to see where bullets are going more than half the time on a hunter drill and get some meaningful feedback. For example my last several attempts, using handicapped times (30/90sec) I'm still scoring single digits and DNF half of the timed shots. If my system was shooting 4MOA I'd barely ever hit the paper and I don't know how much I'd get outa that practice.

now if your rifle is capable of 4MOA with cheap ammo, and you can shoot it 4MOA under time from positions then I can see how you would still gain value there.

 

[justinspicher]

The primary reason is to check the accuracy and precision of the rifle and ammunition, not the shooter.

How do you sight in a rifle, if not by shooting groups? Or pick loads to hand load?

Shooting a group is a necessity, I can agree to that, even for folks who handload. I don’t, I shoot factory ammo.

I just don’t believe that constantly shooting groups on paper makes you more accurate. It’s a metric to measure how accurate you can be. Nothing wrong with that, I just prefer to test my accuracy differently.

 

[sbaker0029]

Anyone tried the federal 223 75gr tmj?

@Q_Sertorius I saw a you mentioned them in the range day thread. Other than being kind of slow, any other reports?

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Anyone tried the federal 223 75gr tmj?

@Q_Sertorius I saw a you mentioned them in the range day thread. Other than being kind of slow, any other reports?

They didn’t shoot well enough in my 1:9” twist Tikka for me to consider them further.

 

[Wprinkle]

4 MOA isn't as useful in the hunter drill when there are 2, 3, and 5 MOA targets. I dont necessarily disagree with the sentiment but it drives a guy nuts after shooting primarily stuff with mechanical precision inside 1 MOA 10 shot groups.

I suck at putting thoughts into words so let me revise. Absolutely nice tight groups are fn awesome helps my mental health haha.. problem is that’s pretty much the only metric we use (as a whole) to measure ourselves. Proof is right here. All we post are group sizes in the rifle world, it’s the only metric we seem to use. Example if you and i set targets at what ever distance, and from standing with all our gear on and goto sitting unsupported and have to get 4 shots off.. let’s say you do it on 30 seconds all shots have a 8” “group” I do it in 3 minutes takes 2 minutes to get the first shot off but my 4 shots can be covered by a snuff can. We post our targets and only our and everyone will assume I’m really good and you suck, when in fact you are infinitely more deadly as a hunter than me..

When we focus on improving the entire system and by all means super consistent and accurate ammo helps but is not required. For me it’s volume over time. If i have to accept less accuracy to train for 5k rounds a year a feel that’s better than super accurate for 500 rounds a year.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

I suck at putting thoughts into words so let me revise. Absolutely nice tight groups are fn awesome helps my mental health haha.. problem is that’s pretty much the only metric we use (as a whole) to measure ourselves. Proof is right here. All we post are group sizes in the rifle world, it’s the only metric we seem to use. Example if you and i set targets at what ever distance, and from standing with all our gear on and goto sitting unsupported and have to get 4 shots off.. let’s say you do it on 30 seconds all shots have a 8” “group” I do it in 3 minutes takes 2 minutes to get the first shot off but my 4 shots can be covered by a snuff can. We post our targets and only our and everyone will assume I’m really good and you suck, when in fact you are infinitely more deadly as a hunter than me..

When we focus on improving the entire system and by all means super consistent and accurate ammo helps but is not required. For me it’s volume over time. If i have to accept less accuracy to train for 5k rounds a year a feel that’s better than super accurate for 500 rounds a year.

I disagree with the premise that it’s all we post here. I think that is a recording bias. It’s easy to post a picture of a 10-shot group. And probably more engaging than saying, “I ran position drills on 8” steel targets for an hour yesterday.” But I think most RokSliders know which of those two things is more likely to bring home animals. And, of course, the pictures of actual hunting success get more interest than either.

But, my point is only that you have to start knowing the capabilities and limitations of your system. And I think the RokSlider cool-aid washes down the bitter pill that real results from realistic training matter, we all suck, none of us practice enough, etc.

For the training ammo part of it, I would absolutely practice with 4 MOA ammo if that’s all I had or could afford. I would simply use it on 4” steel at 100 yards, 8” steel at 200 yards, and 12” steel at 300 yards. If I miss, I know it’s because I suck. But I think most of us are blessed with better options than that.