Rifle scopes you'd love to see Form test

[Castle Rock]

and @SDHNTR - I don't have a link, but think it's been covered here before a couple-few years ago.

Short version as I recall it was that Ilya actually spoke with Form. Confirmed his bona fides. Found it hard to believe someone could shoot that much. Chalked the scope failures to a mount that had springs - which showed he wasn't familiar with the whole suite of tests. And continued to say that he 'liked the people at companies x, y, and z very much' and that they made 'durable' scopes (while mainly still commenting on reticle design and optical quality, and acknowledging that he doesn't shoot a lot).

Frankly, I pay him no attention anymore.

Yep, dark lord of smoke would be more appropriate

 

[RockAndSage]

Ilya was just asked about this again on SH yesterday and proceeded to mistakenly (?) say that Form had tested the Maven RS1.2 and Tract 2.5-15, then failed one and passed the other despite them being the "same scope" internally. As far as I can tell I see no record of the Tract 2.5-15 being tested though, so not sure what to make of that.

People who gaslight others use this exact tactic - they grasp for any tiny thread they think they can get traction with, and use it to try to discredit everything someone or a group is saying, trying to make you think everyone's crazy or misguided for believing their own eyes and experiences. Deny, redirect, counter-accuse.

Ilya would probably also argue the Sig 320 problems are user error.

 

[Frozenlead]

I’m curious. Got a link?

DLO live episode 96

Not sure if this is @Dobermann was talking about, but I came across it today. They start discussing it around the 20min mark.

 

[eric1115]

DLO live episode 96

Not sure if this is @Dobermann was talking about, but I came across it today. They start discussing it around the 20min mark.

Yep, it's exactly what I'm talking about. They repeat the same "uncontrolled variables" argument, it could be bedding or mounting or or or, without mentioning that the rifle always somehow passes when it's got a NF, SWFA or Trijicon on it.

It'S nOt SciEnTiFic! Well isn't repeatability one of the core tenets of science? If your multi-thousand dollar highly controlled testing equipment can't replicate the issues people are seeing in the field, what are you really testing?

If a redneck dropping rifles is replicating the issues people report, and doing it consistently, and showing that the scopes people report as being bombproof do indeed consistently pass, then is it really that unscientific?

 

[Dobermann]

DLO live episode 96

Not sure if this is @Dobermann was talking about, but I came across it today. They start discussing it around the 20min mark.

The videos and posts I knew about were from a few years ago.

I'd not seen this one, and likely won't spend time doing so. Will leave to the rest of you to comment on it if you wish.

 

[SDHNTR]

DLO live episode 96

Not sure if this is @Dobermann was talking about, but I came across it today. They start discussing it around the 20min mark.

I tried. Made it about 3.5 minutes before losing interest. Snooze fest.

 

[JGRaider]

Yep, it's exactly what I'm talking about. They repeat the same "uncontrolled variables" argument, it could be bedding or mounting or or or, without mentioning that the rifle always somehow passes when it's got a NF, SWFA or Trijicon on it.

It'S nOt SciEnTiFic! Well isn't repeatability one of the core tenets of science? If your multi-thousand dollar highly controlled testing equipment can't replicate the issues people are seeing in the field, what are you really testing?

If a redneck dropping rifles is replicating the issues people report, and doing it consistently, and showing that the scopes people report as being bombproof do indeed consistently pass, then is it really that unscientific?

The biggest problem I see with your argument is that large numbers of hunters use failed RS drop test scopes successfully every year, they've held zero, killed loads of game, and have for years, hence the skepticism. 99% of hunters any/everywhere have never heard of RS or the RS drop test anyway.

 

[cuerro viejo]

The biggest problem I see with your argument is that large numbers of hunters use failed RS drop test scopes successfully every year, they've held zero, killed loads of game, and have for years, hence the skepticism. 99% of hunters any/everywhere have never heard of RS or the RS drop test anyway.I

And there are lots of guys that have had Luppy fail too. I’m 2/3 in fails, I’m also 2/2 on swaro. I really loved the mark 4HD 2.5-10x42 it shotte the bed on its third week of owner ship, the HD5 3-15 made is 1.5 years and failed on a hunt. Nothing like having to look down the barrel on a wounded bayed bear at 15 yards.

Luppy needs to invest in some Japanese H1Visa’s clearly they don’t have it figured out like LO does

 

[JGRaider]

2, 1" tube Swaros myself, and one VX3 out of probably 20 Leupy's, but I only have 1 left. Its a 14 yr old VX6 that won't die. I've had great luck with LRHS, a couple of Athlon's, and a couple of Arken's. I've got a 50+ yr old Weaver K4 that has held zero all that time.

 

[Kimber7man]

Bad ass. Thanks for sharing that. Davidson needs to be shouting it from the rooftops now.

I kind of think it would speak louder if he didn’t - let others shout it for him…..

 

[cuerro viejo]

2, 1" tube Swaros myself, and one VX3 out of probably 20 Leupy's, but I only have 1 left. It’s a 14 yr old VX6 that won't die. I've had great luck with LRHS, a couple of Athlon's, and a couple of Arken's. I've got a 50+ yr old Weaver K4 that has held zero all that time.

The LRHS have always been good, gap got to much info going in the reticle though

 

[4th_point]

The biggest problem I see with your argument is that large numbers of hunters use failed RS drop test scopes successfully every year, they've held zero, killed loads of game, and have for years, hence the skepticism. 99% of hunters any/everywhere have never heard of RS or the RS drop test anyway.

I get to travel the country for my work, and have come across a lot more hunters than I expected. Most don't care about hunting forums. I don't recall a single person who knew about Rokslide.

Personally, I have moved away from Vortex and Leupold. But, truth be told I have had severe impacts to both in the field. Above and beyond the drop tests here, with no issues. I've hunted the breaks of the Snake and OR coastrange where it's steep and slippery. Falling down in really steep terrain, with loose ground or booby traps hidden under thick ferns just happens. Or vines that trap your ankle on the coast, just as you are trying to take a step on a treacherous hillside! And next thing you know, your rifle smacks into a rock or hard log.

One time I fell really hard in Eastern Oregon, near Hells Canyon, and my Tikka hit a small boulder so hard I thought for sure the stock would be broken or worse. It was steep, and really slippery near basalt cliffs. I shot a cow elk shortly after and had no change in POI. It was a Leupold.

I've had similar severe impacts with an old Vortex Viper. No issues. My buddy has been rocking another old Viper on his Tikkler 7RM for years. Just won't die.

The funny part is that the rings and mounts used are poo-pooed by many. Some DNZ and some vertical split ring Warne.

I don't dismiss the tests here outright though. I just take everything with a grain of salt, since I can't see it with my own eyes. I've been doing my own tests for awhile, before it was a thing at Rokslide. If it's something one is into, there's nothing like doing it for yourself.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Bad ass. Thanks for sharing that. Davidson needs to be shouting it from the rooftops now.

I have a Rokcast episode coming out tomorrow featuring Aaron. I asked him why he hasn't posted the video he sent me about the changes they made to the Acura after seeing the drop test. He replied that it’s because they "suck at marketing." Aaron always cracks me up, and he’s a great podcast guest, even with my terrible ADHD babbling.

Revic Impact Test in Production

This is "Revic Impact Test in Production" by Gunwerks on Vimeo, the home for high quality videos and the people who love them.

vimeo.com

 

[RockAndSage]

I have a Rokcast episode coming out tomorrow featuring Aaron. I asked him why he hasn't posted the video he sent me about the changes they made to the Acura after seeing the drop test. He replied that it’s because they "suck at marketing." Aaron always cracks me up, and he’s a great podcast guest, even with my terrible ADHD babbling.

Revic Impact Test in Production

This is "Revic Impact Test in Production" by Gunwerks on Vimeo, the home for high quality videos and the people who love them.

vimeo.com

Awesome. That's a solid video too. Will look forward to the Rokcast episode.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Maybe Koshkin tests his hunting and shooting scopes with his own protocol? Not sure but it's possible. I wouldn't trust AD from Gunwerks with anything coming out of his mouth.

Sorry to say, but practically nobody thinks these RS drop tests are the "protocal of scope testing" except lots of people here.

OH, the RS "People" are spreading the word, and rifle scope companies are definitely paying attention.

 

[JGRaider]

OH, the RS "People" are spreading the word, and rifle scope companies are definitely paying attention.

Good deal. Post a link the first time you see a manufacturer's video throwing their mounted scopes around.

 

[Coleredding00]

OH, the RS "People" are spreading the word, and rifle scope companies are definitely paying attention.

As they should. Someone needs to start holding manufacturers responsible for selling garbage that doesn’t perform as it should.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Good deal. Post a link the first time you see a manufacturer's video throwing their mounted scopes around.

Have you ever seen NightForce or Trijicon throw scopes on the ground?

 

[4th_point]

Have you ever seen NightForce or Trijicon throw scopes on the ground?

Can you provide links, for both?

Another scope manufacturer was throwing scopes off of the roof of their HQ or adjacent building. But that petered out for reasons that I am not privy to.

That stated, throwing a scope on the ground doesn't tell us much. Unless it's an obvious fail.

When I was doing product dev, we didn't have a drop requirement, but did it anyway with production representative models. This was considered severe abuse, but we used it for advertising. And customers expected it, but it was simply due to over-engineered products setting an unrealistic expectation in the past.

I left that industry, but now have clients that do drop tests for Hi-Rel and MIL-STD. I make sure that they don't make unfounded claims. You'd be surprised how many don't understand the complexity of a drop test.

 

[JGRaider]

Have you ever seen NightForce or Trijicon throw scopes on the ground?

No I haven't. Are they scopes only, or mounted scopes? Tell NF they need a reticle that doesn't suck for hunting while you're at it.