Rifle ice/snow freeze eval 2025

[Reddish]

Because manufacturers don’t actually shoot and test their guns like most believe that they do.

It’s a lot cheaper to have your customers do all the prototype testing.

 

[Unckebob]

No, the walker trigger really should be replaced. They are as sensitive to debris as any, and more likely to have incidental failures.

I have a gorgeous mid 80's M700 my elderly father recently gave me. It has the old Walker trigger in it. I am never going to molest it, but I would like to replace the trigger with something safe.

Suggestions for best option.

 

[Formidilosus]

Round 2, post #2.

 

[Lou270]

So what is different with the 700 sear design that makes it more likely to freeze than say a tikka? I understand the comnector/walker allowing the trigger to move issue but the tikka is an enclosed trigger as well and little things need to move in an enclosed space. Is it just that there is less room for water/snow to get in? I have looked at this as an open (mauser/old 70) vs closed design than anything else issue. Out of curiousity did the trigger pull on the 700 for ex or did it not move? Wondering where the “freeze” was as if trigger pulls the sear should drop and let pin go. I have seen enclosed triggers of various makes get gunked in past as well and stopped working so know it happens just curious mechanics as cant tell from diagrams

Lou

 

[Formidilosus]

Updated post #2.

 

[Mukwa]

Thanks for time and energy to test and post this. Other than the natural rigors my rifle has experienced during its use in harsh conditions from a season I’ve never actually considered testing the exposure or limit of its function to be better prepared. I’m intrigued by this capability test. My rifle doesn’t know what’s coming.

 

[Wapiti1]

So what is different with the 700 sear design that makes it more likely to freeze than say a tikka? I understand the comnector/walker allowing the trigger to move issue but the tikka is an enclosed trigger as well and little things need to move in an enclosed space. Is it just that there is less room for water/snow to get in? I have looked at this as an open (mauser/old 70) vs closed design than anything else issue. Out of curiousity did the trigger pull on the 700 for ex or did it not move? Wondering where the “freeze” was as if trigger pulls the sear should drop and let pin go. I have seen enclosed triggers of various makes get gunked in past as well and stopped working so know it happens just curious mechanics as cant tell from diagrams

Lou

There are two issues at play:

1. The Remington design is a slip system. The cocking piece pushes forward on the sear, but the sear bar is held up at the rear by the trigger (or intermediate lever) with the pivot pin being at the front of the housing. This means that the force of the firing pin spring has less leverage on the sear bar as it is pushed down through slip between the two pieces. In nearly EVERY other trigger, the sear engagement is in front of the pivot pin and it falls forward with no slip.

2. The sear bar is LONG and has surface contact with the trigger housing it's entire length on both sides. Ice forms along the sides and glues it in place. Other designs use a very short sear with relatively little housing contact.

So, less leverage and lots of contact surface for ice, dust, caked up oil, etc and the sear is very easy to lock up relative to a forward fall system with a short sear. The safety issues are separate from all of this. The poorer ones tried to improve the Walker design, and not re-engineering the whole thing. The better ones take a whole different approach to how to engage the safety and immobilize the sear.

Jeremy

 

[Lou270]

Thanks for the detailed response and makes sense.

Lou

 

[ElPollo]

Round 2:

7° F when started.

View attachment 826290



Same as above- 4 ounces of water apiece- the Tikka and MRC got some extra.


Left to right:

1). Tikka T3 in ROKStok
2). Browning X-Bolt 2
3). Bat HH, with Bixn-Andy Tacsport trigger
4) MRC
5). Remington M700, factory trigger

View attachment 826294


View attachment 826295



Update Jan 21, 2025.


This morning was 11° F.

View attachment 827016




Rifles were checked in reverse order.


1). R700: Had to to beat bolt open and back, multiple cycles forward and back then a round fed. Bolt would not close even with pounding on the bolt handle. Ejected round out, fed again, beat on bolt again. Forced bolt handle closed. Firing pin released when trigger was pulled, but it was a light strike. Lifted bolt and closed, it snapped again with more force. Lifted again and ejected round. Cycled fine and firing pin released with full force. Worked after that. Approximately 60 seconds of work.

2). MRC: Safety operated fine, bolt was stiff opening but no issue. Pulled bolt rearward, ice and snow blocked its full travel. Pushed forward, pulled back and it went far enough back to grab cartridge. Pushed forward, round fed fine, a bit stiff to close but no issue. Firing pin fell on first trigger pull, but not full force. Cycled to eject round and the round wouldn’t release from the extractor due to the bolt not being able to go all the way back. Removed mag, removed round, reinsert mag- rifle and trigger functioned correctly after that. Approximately 12 seconds to return to full function.

3). BAT Hammer Head with BixN-Andy: Cycled bolt 2-3 times before the round picked up. Cycled fine after that, trigger was 100% dead- absolute failure to fire no matter what was done. Took approximately 34 minutes at 65° F inside for the trigger to work. The first 3-4 times after that were light strikes.

4). Browning x-Bolt 2: Had to spend approx 1 min beating open the bolt. Fed first round, but bolt would not close. Then couldn’t get the bolt back. Tried to remove magazine, it was frozen in. Had to smack magazine repeatedly to release it- when the magazine was removed, all the rounds fell out due to the rotary follower was frozen solid. Magazine was completely inoperable. Beat bolt open, round did not extract from chamber. Beat rifle on the buttpad with muzzle up and got round to fall out. Could not beat handle hard enough to get it to close. The magazine took approximately 10 minutes in my pocket to start working again. At 16 minutes I finally got the bolt closed- the trigger was 100% non-functional. It took just over 20 minutes at 66° F inside before it fired- and the firing pin released while not pulling the trigger (ND) the first time. Took 3-4 cycles before it really released the firing pin correctly.


5). Tikka: Bolt cycled back fine, was stiff going forward picking up first round due to ice and when the bolt came back a lot of snow from the scope fell in the action. Instead of dumping it out, I brushed even more off like a dummy and filled the action. Again instead of opening the bolt and dumping the snow out, I shoved it forward. Rifle picked up round fine, but would not close due to the compressed snow/ice in the chamber.

From the video, right before closing the bolt-
View attachment 827042


Needless to say it did not lock up. Pulled bolt back, slammed it forward, back again, forward, etc, etc. The round was encased in compacted snow/ice. Tried to beat buttpad on ground to get round to fall out- didn’t work. Hammered on bolt as hard as I dared- no joy. Pulled bolt, bolt face was filled with compacted snow.

View attachment 827056

Scraped out ice with knife, reinserted bolt. Still would not close. Set rifle to the side and carried the others to the house. Came back and tried beating the bolt closed one more time. Got it closed. Then it would cycle fine, but took a couple tries for the extractor to pull cartridge out of the chamber. After it extracted the round, rifle worked fine. Approximately 8 minutes for rifle to return to full function. It was 100% due to me not brushing the snow off the rifle (like all the others) before opening the action.



Conclusion after second round.

BixN-Andy TacSport trigger is a complete failure with snow and ice. Browning X-Bolt 2 was a total failure due to the magazine not working at all; as well as the trigger being frozen- then it fired without trigger being pulled. R700 took a bit of work, but function returned quickly. The Tikka would have functioned without issue had I brushed the snow that was caked on like I did for all the others. But doing so and what followed caused its failure. The Montana Rifle Company rifle functioned correctly without issue.

Any thoughts on why the BNA trigger appears to be performing worse than the stock R700 trigger? Think it might increased pathways for ingress of crap with the custom action and chassis, or maybe something in the design of the trigger?

And thanks again for taking all these guns out to play in the snow.

 

[Formidilosus]

Any thoughts on why the BNA trigger appears to be performing worse than the stock R700 trigger? Think it might increased pathways for ingress of crap with the custom action and chassis, or maybe something in the design of the trigger?

Because it is an open trigger design. The bolt on the BAT action is fluted giving more pathways for water, and the gaps and openings all over chassis certainly do not help.

And thanks again for taking all these guns out to play in the snow.

Yes sir.

 

[JohnJohnson]

Because it is an open trigger design

If I may, what does this mean? When I think of open trigger designs I think of a Jewell with completely exposed internals.

 

[ElPollo]

Because it is an open trigger design. The bolt on the BAT action is fluted giving more pathways for water, and the gaps and openings all over chassis certainly do not help.



Yes sir.

I was also a bit confused about this. The BNA triggers look pretty enclosed to me. There are some different models though.

 

[Formidilosus]

If I may, what does this mean? When I think of open trigger designs I think of a Jewell with completely exposed internals.

I was also a bit confused about this. The BNA triggers look pretty enclosed to me. There are some different models though.

Apologies. I am drive by typing. This is from looking at them and playing with them, not studying them in-depth.

The outside is sealed. But the design is at least somewhat to allow debris to pass through the trigger, and there is a lot going on inside.

Swiped pic from the internet-


Look at the path at the sear. The smallest debris get in that thing and it is going to cause issues.

Here’s from the top-



Now, compare to a Tikka trigger-



Simplicity isn’t everything, but simple with a good and sealed design helps a bunch. And my guess is that is what is playing into the difference between the factory R700 trigger and the BnA.