Reloads, just how anal are you?

[Nimbus73]

Please bear with my wordiness on this discussion but I'm really curious on just how good is good enough. I began following this site as well as others in my quest for knowledge as I am almost 1 year into the reloading rabbit hole. I probably spend more time accumulating "stuff" at this point and reading, than I have loading and shooting. I have made acceptable loads for my needs in two cartridges and currently experimenting on my 6.5prc, mith 3 or 4 others in the wings. Last week while up at my farm hunting, I had time to shoot a few loads I'm working on for my PRC. I read so much about attaining uber velocities and striving for less than 1/2 moa groups and I'm all for some zippy rounds that make clover leafs too, but with the time I have available between work and family, it's hard for me to make meaningful progress on retesting loads I like and trying to eke out a little bit tighter group, or tweek seating depth, or compare bullet A with powder X, Y or Z. I have to drive an hour or better to get to range that doesn't require a membership or 3 hours to shoot on my on pasture. I can make loads to 1 moa or a little better and for me that's about all I can ask, because frankly I don't know if my eyesight could allow me to do better. It's a little frustrating when I get close to moa because now I'm not sure if it's the load or me. I am a bit anal striving for perfection and can get very OCD about stuff, but I question if I'm just asking too much of myself when I see some of the awesome groups and data I see posted on forums like this. What is your level of "good enough" before moving to a different bullet/powder combo or other cartridge in your closets? I wish I would have started reloading 20+ years ago, but here I am now and wow, this is a slow process sometimes.

 

[Koda_]

I am a bit anal striving for perfection and can get very OCD about stuff, but I question if I'm just asking too much of myself when I see some of the awesome groups and data I see posted on forums like this. What is your level of "good enough" before moving to a different bullet/powder combo or other cartridge in your closets?

Ive only been reloading for just a few years and went thru the same question and learning process. Whats "good enough" for reloads is going to also depend on a few things put together like rifle quality and marksmanship. A good benchmark for a factory rifle is 1moa max. If your rifles not capable of 1moa its going to be very difficult to learn to handload precision rounds. Same for personal marksmanship skills.

But for the sake of discussion lets say the rifle and marksmanship is capable of say 1/4 moa groups consistently and the "good enough" is based only on our handloading skill. For me, my personal handloading benchmark for hunting is somewhere under 1moa, especially if hunting past 300yds, If my handload cant get under 1moa Im changing powder or or bullets.

This video has helped me out the most.

 

[grappling_hook]

Short answer: 3 moa to shoot 200 yards and under, 1.5 moa to shoot under 400 yards, or 1 moa to shoot to 600.

Longer answer: Caveat, I've only been reloading consistently for a few years, but it really depends on your max intended hunting range. And obviously in the context of reloading, this is just determining what the gun needs to do, and not what you need to be able to do from field positions in adverse conditions (gear conversation vs training conversation).

Assuming you want to be able to shoot large game (8" target) at 400 yards, your rifle just needs to be able to shoot within one inch of your point of aim at 100 yards--every time. So, in essence, it just has to be able to shoot 2moa when perfectly centered.

Personally, I want a rifle to shoot 1.5 moa, and 1 moa I'm quite happy with. Remember that people who post pics of groups here are top notch shooters, or are sharing groups they aren't capable of doing every time; a lightweight field rifle that can shoot 1 moa is not common (whether measured by the standard of a single 10-shot group, or the other common standard of the average of five 5-shot groups).

Be very careful in interpreting posts by anyone who says you need less than 1 moa as a standard for conventional hunting ranges. They may be using "moa" very loosely, such as describing a group that is not centered, or they may be calling a 3-shot or 5-shot 1" spread at 100 yards "shooting moa" without qualifying that it was only for 3 or 5.

But the proof is in the pudding. If you hit an 8" target at 400 yards EVERY time in field conditions, you're good to go. The gun just needs under 2moa to do that.

 

[grappling_hook]

Please bear with my wordiness on this discussion but I'm really curious on just how good is good enough. I began following this site as well as others in my quest for knowledge as I am almost 1 year into the reloading rabbit hole. I probably spend more time accumulating "stuff" at this point and reading, than I have loading and shooting. I have made acceptable loads for my needs in two cartridges and currently experimenting on my 6.5prc, mith 3 or 4 others in the wings. Last week while up at my farm hunting, I had time to shoot a few loads I'm working on for my PRC. I read so much about attaining uber velocities and striving for less than 1/2 moa groups and I'm all for some zippy rounds that make clover leafs too, but with the time I have available between work and family, it's hard for me to make meaningful progress on retesting loads I like and trying to eke out a little bit tighter group, or tweek seating depth, or compare bullet A with powder X, Y or Z. I have to drive an hour or better to get to range that doesn't require a membership or 3 hours to shoot on my on pasture. I can make loads to 1 moa or a little better and for me that's about all I can ask, because frankly I don't know if my eyesight could allow me to do better. It's a little frustrating when I get close to moa because now I'm not sure if it's the load or me. I am a bit anal striving for perfection and can get very OCD about stuff, but I question if I'm just asking too much of myself when I see some of the awesome groups and data I see posted on forums like this. What is your level of "good enough" before moving to a different bullet/powder combo or other cartridge in your closets? I wish I would have started reloading 20+ years ago, but here I am now and wow, this is a slow process sometimes.

Reading back through this, it's just time for you to just start going out and shooting more, and not from the bench. Whether a gun/load combo is 1 moa or 3 moa doesn't matter when you are shooting 6 moa standing freehand (which is better than many can do), or 4 moa when kneeling supported, etc. 2 moa should be plenty to get you going.

 

[Nimbus73]

Well, I don't have custom built rifles. All my rifles are hunting rifles and I'm able to shoot 1-1 1/2 moa 3 shot groups constantly with good factory ammo. Obviously, with the sporter barrels they wear, I have to watch my barrel temp. My most recent purchase was a Bergara HMR Pro in 6.5prc and I bought it for box stand hunting and with the intention of stretching it out at a range just to see what I can do. I hunt the piney woods of NW Louisiana and 95% of my shots are 100-150 yards or less, but I do have some opportunity for up to about 300 yards where some of my stands are. I'm confident in those ranges even though my longest kill is about 230 yards. I know how my guns shoot and what my comfort limits are for hunting (300yds and in), but I want to shoot longer ranges up to 700 yards where I have access to for paper punching and steel just for the challenge. I do realize there are many on these forums that are serious shooters with customized guns and extensive reloading knowledge. I do believe with my PRC and hand loads can get better, I just haven't had time to work on it, and maybe with my other guns they are actually really good shooters, I'm just wanting more. Lol. All in all, I'm totally happy with them for my hunting needs, I guess I ask myself is this the best the gun can do or can it do better and the it's just the best I can do.

 

[Nimbus73]

Ye

Reading back through this, it's just time for you to just start going out and shooting more, and not from the bench. Whether a gun/load combo is 1 moa or 3 moa doesn't matter when you are shooting 6 moa standing freehand (which is better than many can do), or 4 moa when kneeling supported, etc. 2 moa should be plenty to get you going.

Yah, I hear you. In recent years, I've put the shotgun down and use my 22 for squirrel hunting. A person can get humbled pretty quick doing that. I hold my own in that regard. If I can see them, most of the time I can hit them. My son has gotten hooked on 22 hunting squirrels and he's realized hitting a squirrel in the head is a lot harder that hitting 2 inch dots from a shooting table.

 

[Nimbus73]

Minute of deer is a little more forgiving that 1 moa, that's why I want to know exactly where the bullet is supposed to be, that way if it's a bad shot, then there is only one person to blame.

 

[SamsonMan22]

My goal these days is to keep all shots inside of a 1.5” dot for 20+ rounds when zeroing a rifle. After that it’s staying inside of a 10” plate from field positions, I use a realistic goal for what I can do below. Wind and terrain will be the deciding factor on my hit rate mostly.

0-200yds anything from standing freehand to prone unsupported
300yds sitting or kneeling with and without a pack or trekking poles
4-500yds sitting, kneeling, prone with pack or trekking poles
6-700yds prone with pack up front and a rear bag

Inside of 600yds I shoot a smaller pieces of steel to try to hone my skills more but my hit rates drop or I need to have more support and better positioning to keep them up.

With the majority of rifles today at the ranges you are shooting for hunting a bad shot will be on the shooter not the rifle, so long as you are shooting a setup that maintains zero and dials properly.

 

[Mike D Texas]

The reality is most factory guns and some factory ammo is very good these days. Without getting into custom throats, seating depths and barrels, it’s really hard to outshoot some factory rifles without spending a lot of money for relatively minimal gains.

Then again like anything mass produced, you can get a not so great one. And then shooter skill, optics and other things come into play.

If you aren’t seeing a noticeable increase in precision of your rifle with what you believe are meticulous hand loads, then maybe your hand loads aren’t the issue.

I would expect much better than 1.5MOA from the rifle you mentioned. Even sub $500 Ruger Americans can typically shoot sub MOA.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[xsn10s]

I have over three decades of recreational reloading experience, and I was pretty dedicated and exacting in the beginning years. But in the past decade or so when the component crunch started I've changed how exacting I am with certain loads or rifle duties. Almost all of my loads are sub moa since I shoot mostly long range. The only moa or greater loads I have would be relegated to CQB to 200 yards training with either my rifles or handguns. Even out to 300 yards I wouldn't get too excited if my loads went slightly over one moa. Honestly for the distance you are shooting I'd get something that was cheaper to shoot than a 6.5 PRC. If it's just for deer a .223, 243, 260, 6.5 CM or 308 win would be cheaper to load for. And probably easier to make accurate loads.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

This thread is a great resource:

Painless load development (mine)

I have had multiple people ask me to lay out how I do load development being that what I do is different. Since Shaen @Shooter71 just rebarreled a Tikka 595 in 6XC I thought it would be easy to show how I do it. It’s a Master Sporter with a T3 lite profiled 20” barrel- keep in mind it is a T3...

rokslide.com

As are these podcasts:

Put the knowledge in those to work and you'll be way ahead. Don't chase small sample size noise.

 

[xsn10s]

Here's an example of why I don't get too anal with reloading now. Back in 2016-2019 I had a 22-250 that just wouldn't shoot better than 1.5 moa with VMAX bullets. I had much better luck with Ballistic Tips, but those were getting more expensive and harder to get. 500 rounds latter I had a bullet keyhole on target, the realization of the barrel was burned out was confirmed. I switched to a Berger 55gr flat based match and voila sub moa loads. But I wasted a ton of components coming to that realization. I shot a chuck at 483 yards in 9 mph winds and pulled the barrel at the end of the season. Covid hit and boom no more reloading components. I was fine, but I sure would have liked to have all that powder, primers, and bullets back. The new barrel is a 260 AI with a 659 yard cold bore badger kill on it. And that was with fire forming loads, the same powder that I wasted on that 22-250.

 

[MallardSX2]

To put it into perspective, I set the same charge into my Frankford arsenal scale dish 2 times and typically come up with .2 grains +- readings. I just dump it in the case and go deer hunting.

Thats how anal I am.

Some guys would be going bonkers not getting exact .1 grain readings. I don't care.

If I am shooting around 1" groups, that's good enough for me.

To be honest, I should only shoot factory shells. I only reload because I find it relaxing and it's a hobby.

 

[xsn10s]

BTW to the OP could you post what scope you are using? Has you rifle shot sub moa with factory ammo?

 

[Article 4]

IME it is a slippery slope. When I learned, it was from another hand loader and then what information I could glean from the Y-tube and other sources.

At first, it was basic...happy to make load myself and see them perform. Didnt track things like neck thickness, SDs, trimming to a thous etc...shot under an inch and sometimes around 1/2. Was happy

Now I track everything and take every step I can to control variables which is what hand loading is for me. The more variables I can control, the more confidence I have in the equipment. If something ever goes wrong, it is likely me and not the equipment. Now 1/2 MOA is the norm and reaching 1/4 is the goal.

Out to 500 yards being 1/2 MOA with acceptable SDs and other factors is less critical, past that, very critical.

 

[sickles107]

My life changed for the better when I went from chasing tiny groups, to focusing on being a 2moa thing hitter.

Zero with 10 round groups, aiming at a 2" dot or square at 100. (2moa)

Buy a 10" round or square steel plate, set it out at 500. (2moa)

I like doing it this way because the aim feels the same on both. And in theory if all rounds fall into 2" at 100, they should also all fall into 10" at 500. Once you get elevation adjustment trued, you will quickly realize wind is the biggest factor on hit rate at distance.

Sounds simple, but you would be surprised how many people claim to have clover leaf super accurate rifles, but cannot consistently hit a 10" plate at 500 in field conditions.

Edit: also regarding reloading, per some info already posted here as reference, load 1 or 2 grains below max, shoot 10 round group. If it doesn't shoot, change bullet or powder. If neither work, change barrel..

 

[Blacktailer]

I've been hunting and reloading for over 50 years. IME group size depends on the rifle and shooter a lot more than the loads. For a scoped bolt action big game rifle from a solid rest if I can't get MOA or better, the rifle needs to be worked on because from field positions the shooter (me) is going to double that. Given an accurate rifle, your loads should be at least as good as factory fodder if not better unless you are doing something wrong but chasing itty bitty groups is a waste of time (for hunting purposes) if you and your rifle aren't up to the task. Leave the minutiae to the bench rest crowd.

 

[MTNDUDE]

I have been following this thread for a couple years now. I shoot for 10 rounds under 1.5 MOA. That's all I chase anymore.

 

[TaperPin]

Rather than try to make a silk purse out of a sows ear, most shooters are better off having a realistic goal for group size and stopping once it’s good enough. Many barrels have been shot out trying every combination under the sun. My buddy does this all the time all it does is burn powder, and he’s ok with that.

I think about hits on target as being based on three things - accuracy of the gun, accuracy of the shooter, amount of wind call error. Hitting plates under perfect conditions is pretty easy, but there’s a large segment of shooters that are delusional about their ability to make wind calls with or without the latest Kestrel.

 

[grappling_hook]

This thread is a great resource:

Painless load development (mine)

I have had multiple people ask me to lay out how I do load development being that what I do is different. Since Shaen @Shooter71 just rebarreled a Tikka 595 in 6XC I thought it would be easy to show how I do it. It’s a Master Sporter with a T3 lite profiled 20” barrel- keep in mind it is a T3...

rokslide.com

As are these podcasts:

Put the knowledge in those to work and you'll be way ahead. Don't chase small sample size noise.

These resources deserve to be seconded for OP.

@Nimbus73 it sounds like you are going through components playing around with changes in seating depth, and probably small changes in powder charge, and using 3-shot groups. You can get accurate much, much quicker, with less rounds fired, by following the processes (and importantly, giving the rationale a chance) in that Painless Load Development thread.