Redding type S, no expander ball, need mandrel or not?

[1badDart]

I use a Redding type S full length sizing, bushing die with no expander for my 22-250, it shoots great.

 

[SDHNTR]

The sac bushings are the real deal. I use them in my bushing dies, well the ones I still use that style die on.

If your cartridge is supported by a sac modular die, you can size with a bushing, mandrel and decap in one step now. This is what Iv moved to. Anneal, one pump on the press, slam it through the giraud and load.

Not only is it faster, my ammo is more consistent than it has ever been.

So you use the SAC bushings just dropped into a Redding type S die? Am I understanding that correctly?

 

[Lawnboi]

SAC makes a couple kinds of bushings. One is for their modular die and has the shoulder built in. The other is a standard bushing that works in Redding dies.

I replaced my standard Redding bushings with sac bushings on my wilson dies. I went a thou under what I was using for Redding. They got rid of a lot of the doughnut problem I had with Redding but Iv pretty much moved over to sac modular dies to get rid of doughnuts all together

 

[SDHNTR]

SAC makes a couple kinds of bushings. One is for their modular die and has the shoulder built in. The other is a standard bushing that works in Redding dies.

I replaced my standard Redding bushings with sac bushings on my wilson dies. I went a thou under what I was using for Redding. They got rid of a lot of the doughnut problem I had with Redding but Iv pretty much moved over to sac modular dies to get rid of doughnuts all together

Got it. I haven’t had any donut issues. After how many resizings were you seeing that issue pop up with Redding bushings?

I really don’t want to change dies. Those SAC Modular’s are spendy! I wouldn’t mind changing bushings but it appears the SAC standard bushing wouldn’t really do anything different than my current Redding ones if I’m not getting any donut to begin with, right? They don’t do anything over and above the Reddings do they?

 

[ID_Matt]

I can't say I have thoroughly tested one way vs the other. I have some dies with a button, and some I have taken out. Never messed with mandrels. I have always thought the point of the button was to straighten out any dings or imperfections in the neck before the bushing sets the size. Some of my brass gets ejected on to rocks or concrete and can ding up the necks pretty good.

 

[Lawnboi]

Got it. I haven’t had any donut issues. After how many resizings were you seeing that issue pop up with Redding bushings?

I really don’t want to change dies. Those SAC Modular’s are spendy! I wouldn’t mind changing bushings but it appears the SAC standard bushing wouldn’t really do anything different than my current Redding ones if I’m not getting any donut to begin with, right? They don’t do anything over and above the Reddings do they?

I have ended up with doughnuts anywhere from 4-6 loadings. Your chamber, and how deep you seat can make a difference.

The sac bushings make more consistent ammo. Less chance of a doughnut is just a byproduct. If you watch some of the videos out there it makes sense. And in practice sizing becomes easier, and seating has been more consistent.

The modular sizing dies are spendy but worth it if you want consistent ammo, to save time, and if you plan on getting alot of loads on your brass. It allows you to fine tune the bushing and the mandrel to your desire. The dies are also nearly a small base die and size the entire case vs my wilson or Redding. My main reason for going to the modular die is to avoid doughnuts all together, and be able to do everything in one pressure stroke.

Is all of it necessary? I don’t know. I have noticed my groups and ammo quality improve since switching. Noticed a difference with both the bushings and the dies.

 

[Dinosdeuce]

Expander is not necessary. The idea of the bushing is so the neck is not over worked during the sizing operation. Also depends on your chamber size and how much the brass is worked during the sizing operation. I’ve loaded thousands of rounds with Redding fl bushing dies without an expander but only bump the shoulder .002” on my bolt guns. I do anneal after the 4 th firing. The brass will work harden and will get spring back that changes neck tension. You will notice it during the seating if you use a single stage press. I use a progress press so that is way every 4th firing I anneal. Don’t know the volume you shoot/reload so may not be an issue. Just depends on the brass you use. I use Lapua for most of the calibers. You can also get a couple of different sizes of bushings to help get the tension you want but eventually the neck with work harden from the sizing operation. Doughnuts could also be a problem as mentioned but as stated it depends on how far you have to seat the bullet to get the jump you want wether it will be a proble. I never chased the lands either. As you stated just another step that’s not necessary. Again depends on the discipline you are shooting.

 

[Lone Hunter 1]

I use Redding Type S dies and see no need for the mandrel unless the necks are bent or you are going to turn the neck. I think folks get too caught up in unnecessary steps. The target will tell you if it is working or not. Whatever you do make sure it’s the same thing every time. Consistency is the key.

 

[sickles107]

Could you put a 223 expander button on a 308 die, so you could still decap without expanding?

 

[BBob]

Could you put a 223 expander button on a 308 die, so you could still decap without expanding?

The Redding S dies in addition to the button also come with a threaded retaining cap for the de-capping pin that does not touch the neck. Many other dies give you the same option.

 

[sickles107]

The Redding S dies in question in addition to the button also come with a threaded retaining cap for the de-capping pin that does not touch the neck. Many other dies give you the same option.

Ahh good to know thank you. I'm looking to make the jump from standard rcbs fl die.

 

[Bang Bang Bling]

This was a good read. I’ve been loading with Redding Type S bushing die and the expander ball but have been considering ditching the ball. I see why people turn the necks, but many I talk to have tried all methods and seen no real notable improvement in accuracy, or ES. I’ll run a comparison on my own before I ditch the ball and stick with the bushing.

 

[SDHNTR]

Old thread. I’ve come full circle on the expander ball. I now use an SAC bushing and a carbide expander ball. Graphite lube in the inside of necks. Makes for enough tension when the expander pulls out that I can barely feel it. It’s smooth, not grabby. I get .002ish neck interference with the bullet. Measured TIR at ogive on a finished round is usually within .002”. On occasion a .004” will sneak in the batch but that could be bullet imperfections, and I sure can’t tell which one it is on a target. TIR at the neck and no bullet is .001” max. I’m satisfied and see no need to tinker further when it’ll do this…

 

[sickles107]

Coming full circle as well after about a year from my last reply above. For my 6cm I use die wax on body and standard hornady FL dies with spinal removed for headspace, got lucky I guess with my chamber and die, as kissing shell holder to die with a touch of cam bumps fired brass .002. Then moly powder and dedicated mandrel for neck tension (21 centry turning arbor, .002 under). Measures .003 after spring back, and very smooth.

It's another step, and kinda a pain in the butt, and may not really matter in the grand scheme, but I'm pretty happy with the measured results.

 

[Svashtar]

Hi Guys, first post on this forum, and joined just to respond to this old thread which I’m glad to see dusted off, as I’ve been going down this rabbit hole for months.

I’m with those that say if something is working well for you don’t change it, but in seeing all the comments about bushings vs mandrels (or both) I don’t think the bushing only folks are considering the difference between what each does. (?). Bottom line, if, if I can set neck tension from the irregular OD (assuming no neck turning, which I don’t do, at least not yet) or perfectly symmetrical ID, I’m going to choose the latter every time. If I’m F Class with a match chamber then I’ll neck turn and still use a mandrel, to keep uneven OD brass possibly behaving irregularly in the tight chamber) but I don’t want to push inconsistencies on the outside of the neck onto the bullet.

My process is simpler and I think possibly cheaper: I anneal, FL resize with a standard non-micrometer Redding Premium sizing die with the expander guts removed to set the shoulder back .002” (I do use a Forster Accu-ring lock ring), then run a turning mandrel to set .002” neck tension, or a standard mandrel if I want to experiment with .001 tension. The only reason I would invest in a bushing die (and SAC bushing if I did), would be to minimize how much the neck is worked when sized down, but since I anneal each time who cares?

I first bought the 21st Century new style aluminum mandrel die body with window and a turning mandrel, then got the APW set from Impact Shooting which even with $40 shipping from Cape Town is an incredible deal, about $105 base price for a die body and _twelve_ mandrels.

My TIR with just this system is consistently excellent, and I think the ammo made is better than my rifle or my skill with it, at least right now.

I have thought about calling Redding and getting a bushing die to experiment sizing with that first, then cleaning up the ID with a mandrel, but now that I’m onto using only the simple mandrel I’m having a hard time figuring out what that will buy me, unless it’s just to save on overworking the brass. So running a mandrel is my last step before trimming, and it’s a lot easier on the brass than pulling a standard expander ball up and out during sizing.

Anyway, like Dennis Miller used to say, that’s just my opinion, I could be wrong. . I’m looking forward to learning more about what other folks are doing. Personally I think there’s about a dozen ways to get to the same point, this one just made the most sense to me.