Redding type S, no expander ball, need mandrel or not?

[SDHNTR]

I primarily use FL Redding type s dies, with the expander ball removed. With a bushing for .002” neck tension. I do not anneal nor neck turn. Don’t want to. Not interested in benchrest level accuracy and don’t want extra steps. I use Lapua or ADG brass. I don’t think I can tell a difference (in accuracy or ES/SD) when I use an expander mandrel or not and just use the bushing. I wouldn’t mind cutting out unneeded steps. So is that mandrel really needed? Anyone else just use the bushing (ball removed) and no mandrel?

 

[SamsonMan22]

I ran that way with a few different rifles and saw no adverse effects. I was not using a mandrel at any point so I can’t comment as to if it would have been even better or not but for those rifles just a bushing with no expander ball was just fine. I didn’t turn necks but did anneal, these were all 300wm using Norma brass.

 

[BBob]

So is that mandrel really needed? Anyone else just use the bushing (ball removed) and no mandrel?

Absolutely not needed. I've never used the expander in any Redding bushing die.

 

[MuleyFever]

I use a mandrel but I have friends that just use the Type S dies with the correct size bushing.

 

[wapitibob]

Use SAC neck bushings and no mandrel.

 

[SDHNTR]

Use SAC neck bushings and no mandrel.

How are they different that the factory Redding bushings?

 

[BBob]

I haven’t used the SAC bushings but some that have shown that they size more consistently than the Redding’s. Redding’s can be all over the place as far as taper, bevel/radius, actual size, etc… and can’t always be trusted to produce what you think they are. I have supposedly smaller bushings that size the same or larger than a bushing marked larger which I believe was the impetus behind the SAC and others like the Micron from Bullet Central.

 

[SDHNTR]

I haven’t used the SAC bushings but some that have shown that they size more consistently than the Redding’s. Redding’s can be all over the place as far as taper, bevel/radius, actual size, etc… and can’t always be trusted to produce what you think they are. I have supposedly smaller bushings that size the same or larger than a bushing marked larger which I believe was the impetus behind the SAC and others like the Micron from Bullet Central.

Hmmm. No issues with consistency I’ve experienced. I measure thoroughly before and after seating and I get .002”, as expected, with the Redding bushing.

Just trying to gather if I should also be using the expander button together with the bushing when sizing?

Or if instead I should be using the expander mandrel after sizing, if not using the button.

Or neither, and only the bushing alone. So far, I’m struggling to find any reason to not continue this program, but I’m always willing to learn.

 

[SDHNTR]

Use SAC neck bushings and no mandrel.

And no expander button either?

 

[wapitibob]

No button or expander. I've been using std Redding bushings with success; .318 fired neck stepping down .315/.312/.310
My SAC bushings will be here Wed. I will try a single bushing size and shoot groups with .311/.310/.309/.308 and see how it goes. They're tapered and provide better runout according to this guy.

 

[BBob]

Not all Redding bushings have sizing discrepancy issues but some do. As long as you are getting results and the sizing is what you’d expect I’d say you’re good. No reason at all in my mind to use the expander when you’re using a bushing die. The mandrel? Maybe. The only way for you to know is shoot some with and without and see if you see it on the target. I’ll wager for your field rifle it’s wasted time to use the mandrel.

 

[SDHNTR]

Not all Redding bushings have sizing discrepancy issues but some do. As long as you are getting results and the sizing is what you’d expect I’d say you’re good. No reason at all in my mind to use the expander when you’re using a bushing die. The mandrel? Maybe. The only way for you to know is shoot some with and without and see if you see it on the target. I’ll wager for your field rifle it’s wasted time to use the mandrel.

I’ve tried. I have a mandrel. And I’m not sure I can tell any difference with and without it. I only got one because someone told me I should use it. But now that I have, and conceptually, I’m not sure I understand the point. If the bushing sizes the neck to a certain measurement, and then you run the mandrel through the neck after sizing, aren’t you changing the measurement that was set by the bushing? Why is the conventional wisdom to use a mandrel if you aren’t going to use an expander button when sizing with the bushing? What am I missing?

 

[wapitibob]

Theory is the mandrel pushes the excess mtl to the OD of the neck leaving a round neck ID, but brass doesn't move quite that easlily.

 

[Dos XX]

The way I have used a mandrel is to use a bushing to size slightly less than I want, say .001 or .002 under, then use a mandrel to bring it up to desired size. This allows you to use mandrels that may give you sizes in between what bushings give you. This would be with neck turned brass. For a field gun, I wouldn't do it. I would, and do, use a bushing, no expander button.

Another line of thinking is that with brass that has not been neck turned, a bushing pushes the neck thickness variation to the id, and a mandrel pushes it to od. Again, field gun, I don't care.

A Lee collet die is a pretty good way to neck size unturned brass. Again, I don't do it on a field gun.

 

[BBob]

Why is the conventional wisdom to use a mandrel if you aren’t going to use an expander button when sizing with the bushing? What am I missing?

This mandrel thing is a newer invention that got dreamed up so you’re not really missing anything. I wouldn’t call it conventional wisdom either because it’s not standard across the board and not everyone is doing it to win either. As said above if you’re going to use a mandrel you’d use a smaller bushing than your target then bring it up to size with the mandrel. The BR or F class guys might see a gain and some claim it does. You haven’t seen it so go with what it’s telling you and don’t waste the time.

The only time IMO you would use the expander button is on a conventional die with a fixed neck diameter. Expanders tend to yank on and pull necks out of alignment. Not always but it’s something you need to watch for and why we tend to not use them.

 

[SDHNTR]

This mandrel thing is a newer invention that got dreamed up so you’re not really missing anything. I wouldn’t call it conventional wisdom either because it’s not standard across the board and not everyone is doing it to win either. As said above if you’re going to use a mandrel you’d use a smaller bushing than your target then bring it up to size with the mandrel. The BR or F class guys might see a gain and some claim it does. You haven’t seen it so go with what it’s telling you and don’t waste the time.

Thanks. Appreciate the pragmatism.

 

[wyosam]

No expander for me. For a while I was using an expander mandrel on my Dasher, because I read some crap on the internet. But as it turns out, I can’t shoot the difference so I’ve omitted that step. Don’t on any hunting cartridges.


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[Clarktar]

I have been contemplating the mandrel route also so I appreciate this thread and the responses. I use Redding type S with bushing and no button.

Works for me, but I'm just a hunter and don't compete for tiny groups.

I do wonder if I should start annealing though.....

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[willfrye027]

I am using only the bushing. Used to do the mandrel after but came to my senses on that. Tested 10 shot groups at 100 and there was no difference.

The F class guys will tell you however that changing neck tension will affect vertical spread at 1000, probably too hard to tell a difference at 100. But I would rather use a different sized bushing to get my neck tension rather than a mandrel

 

[Lawnboi]

The sac bushings are the real deal. I use them in my bushing dies, well the ones I still use that style die on.

If your cartridge is supported by a sac modular die, you can size with a bushing, mandrel and decap in one step now. This is what Iv moved to. Anneal, one pump on the press, slam it through the giraud and load.

Not only is it faster, my ammo is more consistent than it has ever been.