Recoil Question - Different Caliber but Similar Charge and Bullet Grain

[Bidwell]

Been considering different calibers for a new lightweight rifle. I'm just using Barnes 130 ttsx copper bullets and maybe some 110's for my 308. Looking at both 308 and 6.5 cm load data, you can use similar charges for both, albeit different powder. Would recoil be much different for either rifle if charge and bullet weight are roughly the same? This seems like a Newtons third law scenario to me, so feel like the recoil should be close-ish. Does bullet diameter make any difference here? Only difference I see in the load data is the 6.5 will be a couple hundred fps slower than the 308. I've never been able to feel the recoil difference between something like 2800 fps and 3000 fps. If I'm only shooting out to 300 yards, maaaybe 350 max, are there many advantages to the 6.5 other than slightly less drop and wind deflection? I hear the 6.5 is inherently more accurate, and others call bs on that, so I'd like to hear any opinions on this too. I have no experience with it.

 

[Kyguy]

If you know the powder charge, bullet weight, and weight of the gun, Bison Ballistics has a recoil calculator to compare things. I don't think that bullet diameter really comes into the equation.

Out to 300 yds, one is not any better than the other in real world situations. Really even out to 500, what one will do, so will the other, but once you get beyond 500 the 6.5 is going to start coming out ahead in the wind drift.

Compare the Federal Fusion 150gr .308 at 2820 and Fusion 6.5 Creed 140 gr at 2750. Out to 500 yds, the .308 drops a bit less and drifts a bit more than the 6.5, but they're within an inch or so in both categories all the way. Velocity retention is within 20 fps out to 500 yds. Energy has a bit bigger gap, the .308 starts out with more and still ends with more, but the 6.5 Creed closes the gap as distance increases.

Out to 300 yds, there's no practical difference between the two, other than the 6.5 COULD have slightly less recoil in similar weight rifles.

 

[Pharmseller]

Maybe less on paper, but would it be noticeable?

I doubt it.




P

 

[Bidwell]

If you know the powder charge, bullet weight, and weight of the gun, Bison Ballistics has a recoil calculator to compare things. I don't think that bullet diameter really comes into the equation.

Out to 300 yds, one is not any better than the other in real world situations. Really even out to 500, what one will do, so will the other, but once you get beyond 500 the 6.5 is going to start coming out ahead in the wind drift.

Compare the Federal Fusion 150gr .308 at 2820 and Fusion 6.5 Creed 140 gr at 2750. Out to 500 yds, the .308 drops a bit less and drifts a bit more than the 6.5, but they're within an inch or so in both categories all the way. Velocity retention is with 20 fps out to 500 yds. Energy has a bit bigger gap, the .308 starts out with more and still ends with more, but the 6.5 Creed closes the gap as distance increases.

Out to 300 yds, there's no practical difference between the two, other than the 6.5 COULD have slightly less recoil in similar weight rifles.

Thanks! I've looked at the calculator. Yeah with all things being as equal as possible, the recoil is very similar. For the 308, with 130 grain bullets at 2900 fps and 45.7 gr (my current load) and a 5.5 lb round rifle (Howa superlite with scope - Ideally) , recoil = 21 ft/lbs. For the 6.5, Max charge of 45.0 with same bullet weight, rifle and 2800 fps the recoil =19 ft/lbs. So not much different. Will be using a muzzle brake which should soften things.

Won't be hunting past 300. I was curious to try a 6.5 and a new caliber but at those ranges just doesn't seem worth the extra expense of new dies, cleaning kits, brass, projectiles and powder. Easily over 400 with nice components. Especially if I'll be getting more energy into a deer at short ranges and not much difference in recoil and accuracy. If anyone disagrees, I'm definitely open to other opinions.

 

[WV Mountaineer]

You won’t feel the difference when bullet weights are that close.

 

[LeftyWilbury]

when i retired my savage 110 in 30-06 for a tikka T3 in 7 mag, I thought the tikka felt like less recoil. Not that it has less recoil obviously, but the ergonomics of the stock worked better at my shoulder.

that said, i dont think you'll find too much difference between 308 and 65CM recoil-wise, or accuracy, or performance.

 

[wapitibob]

Use plugs and muffs with the brake and shooting at the range.

 

[Bidwell]

Use plugs and muffs with the brake and shooting at the range.

Thanks! Will do

 

[Amos Keeto]

Stock design will make a huge difference in felt recoil.
I shot a Ruger M77 in .300 Win Mag and a Ruger M77 in .338 Win Mag!
Both of those guns were like walking up behind a bay mule! Recoil was unbelievable!
I shot a Wby .300 Wby Mag! The difference in recoil was amazing!
Couldn't have been anything but stock design!

 

[Bluefish]

As others have said recoil does not have a component from bore diameter or pressure. Only charge weight, bullet weight, velocity and gun weight. Want to go down a deep rabbit hole, start researching recoil vs pressure on shotgun forums. TLDR version, pressure does not influence recoil, but many will swear it does even after it’s been proven not to.

 

[Bidwell]

As others have said recoil does not have a component from bore diameter or pressure. Only charge weight, bullet weight, velocity and gun weight. Want to go down a deep rabbit hole, start researching recoil vs pressure on shotgun forums. TLDR version, pressure does not influence recoil, but many will swear it does even after it’s been proven not to.

Interesting.. will look into that. Been doing some research on light weight shotguns so that will be a concern. It makes sense when I think about it now, but as a relatively new shooter you see a lot of material about how much lighter the recoil is on a 6.5 creedmoor but they don't really specify that's because they're comparing a 120 grain projectile with a 168 grain one. Apples to apples, it doesn't make a difference from what I can tell.

 

[Bluefish]

Interesting.. will look into that. Been doing some research on light weight shotguns so that will be a concern. It makes sense when I think about it now, but as a relatively new shooter you see a lot of material about how much lighter the recoil is on a 6.5 creedmoor but they don't really specify that's because they're comparing a 120 grain projectile with a 168 grain one. Apples to apples, it doesn't make a difference from what I can tell.

For shotguns recoil is all about shot weight, speed and gun weight. Powder amount has an effect, but there is so little used it’s not a big effect like in centerfire rifles. Most target shotgun loads are 14-17g of powder. That’s less than the difference between a 6.5 cm and a 300 rm powder usage.
As I remember 100fps is equal to 1/8 oz of shot for recoil.

 

[Davyalabama]

Stock design will have a lot to do with it, but you already know that.

All things being equal (stock design, etc.), you will only feel it shooting at paper. The feeling of recoil is negligible when you have him lined up in your sights, I know these things. Now, if you have had a surgery or something else that limits your recoil absorbing power, that is an entirely different scenario.

 

[Amos Keeto]

Stock design will have a lot to do with it, but you already know that.

All things being equal (stock design, etc.), you will only feel it shooting at paper. The feeling of recoil is negligible when you have him lined up in your sights, I know these things. Now, if you have had a surgery or something else that limits your recoil absorbing power, that is an entirely different scenario.

Here's the rub.
I've been shooting a Ruger No.1 .270 Win and a Parker Hale .270 Win and a Rem 870 12 gauge.

In August of 2019, I had my shoulder replaced. Doctor says, "NO HEAVY RECOIL!"

So, I went to an AR. Much softer recoil.
This fall, I found a "Honey Hole" of massive white-tailed bucks!
Soooo...I'm going back to the Parker Hale!
HOPEFULLY! (knock on wood!) I can load a 100 grain or even 90 grain bullet to reduce recoil to an acceptable level.

You are correct!
Recoil is much more evident when shooting off a bench.
While excitement and adrenaline reduces "felt" recoil, it doesn't reduce "actual" recoil.
I'm hoping that lighter bullets and lighter loads will allow me to withstand .270 Win recoil!

Yeah, I tried shooting off the opposite shoulder. I may as well have tried fly fishing wearing boxing gloves!
I am (sadly) terminally right handed!

 

[Macintosh]

Unless you just want to download that 270, why not try the rokslide koolaid and just use the AR? It’ll clearly work.

 

[Amos Keeto]

Unless you just want to download that 270, why not try the rokslide koolaid and just use the AR? It’ll clearly work.

Without a doubt! It's 6.8mm Rem SPC and I've taken several deer with it

Keep it up and that may be what I do! LOL!

What I should do is bite the bullet, buy some ammo and practice out to about 250 yards.
In all honesty, I haven't pulled the trigger on my AR in quite some time.
I just have more confidence in the PH at extended ranges.

 

[dieselchessy]

Not sure it applies to the context of this conversation, but I find recoil has a threshold where it gets uncomfortable real quick.
Earlier it was said that 19 ft/lb wasnt much different than 21 ft/lb.
That may be true on paper, but maybe not in real life.

For me easily comfortable is somewhere south of 15 ft/lb, not to bad is south of 20 ft/lb and north of 20 ft/lb quickly gets into no fun at all.
For me up to around 15 there is little change in comfort, but from 15 to 20 it goes from ok, to this ain't much fun after 20 rounds. Much above 20 it gets to be no damn fun real quick.

 

[Bidwell]

Not sure it applies to the context of this conversation, but I find recoil has a threshold where it gets uncomfortable real quick.
Earlier it was said that 19 ft/lb wasnt much different than 21 ft/lb.
That may be true on paper, but maybe not in real life.

For me easily comfortable is somewhere south of 15 ft/lb, not to bad is south of 20 ft/lb and north of 20 ft/lb quickly gets into no fun at all.
For me up to around 15 there is little change in comfort, but from 15 to 20 it goes from ok, to this ain't much fun after 20 rounds. Much above 20 it gets to be no damn fun real quick.

Good to know. I'm hoping the muzzle brake will reduce the 20 ft/lbs I got from the recoil calc will get down to around 15. I might try a 110 gr ttsx too.

 

[Sinistram]

One other factor to consider is recoil velocity. This is an oft overlooked calculation that I find to determine the "comfort" of recoil more than the actual foot pounds. Those quick, jabbing calibers are the ones really hard to manage without practice. A big, slow push is generally more comfortable to me. I'd rather shoot 20 ft lb @10fps rifle than one at 15 and 15. The online calculators will show this for you.

To continue with the Ruger stock bashing, I used to own a Ruger 77 in little old 270 and it was absolutely obnoxious. Turned a run of the mill cartridge into something I hated shooting. Swapped it for a Remington 700 in the same with a nice stock with a cheek piece and have never looked back. Very lovely to shoot now.

 

[Davyalabama]

Here's the rub.
I've been shooting a Ruger No.1 .270 Win and a Parker Hale .270 Win and a Rem 870 12 gauge.

In August of 2019, I had my shoulder replaced. Doctor says, "NO HEAVY RECOIL!"

So, I went to an AR. Much softer recoil.
This fall, I found a "Honey Hole" of massive white-tailed bucks!
Soooo...I'm going back to the Parker Hale!
HOPEFULLY! (knock on wood!) I can load a 100 grain or even 90 grain bullet to reduce recoil to an acceptable level.

You are correct!
Recoil is much more evident when shooting off a bench.
While excitement and adrenaline reduces "felt" recoil, it doesn't reduce "actual" recoil.
I'm hoping that lighter bullets and lighter loads will allow me to withstand .270 Win recoil!

Yeah, I tried shooting off the opposite shoulder. I may as well have tried fly fishing wearing boxing gloves!
I am (sadly) terminally right handed!

Well, one thing you could do is learn to shoot off a tripod or if you are in a stand some type of shooting sticks to help take off some of the recoil. (They make larger rubber stoppers for a tripod to be used in a ladder that won't allow the feet to fall between the cracks, this will help a lot) I had to do that last year when I tore a bicep. Now, I prefer the "normal" way off shooting out of a stand, but one does what one has to do. A good tripod will mitigate some of that recoil, it should be enough for you to shoot 130's out of the .270 you could step down to a 110 accubond or another. Don't just buy a tripod and expect your bullets to hit in the same place as before, it will take some time to "learn it." I'm not talking weeks or anything, just a little resighting and practice before you hit the woods. Practice a lot at home taking the tripod out, setting it up, learning to mount your rifle, etc., also practice taking it down. Now do it blindfolded and in the dark!!!!!!!!! Watch that noise too.

Buy carbon fiber, use an arca clamp if you have one on your gun, this will help lock the gun in for recoil. You will have to learn "your" hand placement for the tripod, there are several videos on youtube to show you how to handle recoil off a tripod, there were 2/3 that were really good about hand placement and/or using a piece of paracord to tie the front end to your belt loop and hold the front end down (this one really helped.) Most of those videos were of guys shooting 6mm or 6.5 creedmores, crap those little pop guns can't compare to the recoil of a 300 win. Those videos didn't help me with hand placement.

Also, get a good limbsaver or pachmayr recoil pad, yeah I know, they can hang on clothing while coming to bare, but you are protecting your shoulder, there will be some tradeoff. Also, you might try a cheek riser pad to get your head more in line with your scope, this will also mitigate recoil (it helps more than you think and it's a lot cheaper than a new stock). They also make some Tshirts with a pad in them already, you may try that as well. None of these last three things are going to stop recoil, but they should tame it enough to shoot that 270 with 130's out of it. There is nothing wrong with a 130 powerpoint on deer, period some are using a 110 accubond too. That 110 reduced recoil should really help.