Recoil, . 243 vs ARC or Grendel

[Decker9]

Seems to be more 6 ARC and 6.5 Grendel shooters south of the boarder, so thought I’d ask in here for some input.

Does anyone have first hand experience with these two cartridges, plus the .243?

Reason I ask, my 10 y/o daughter has a youth .243, but it’s a bit to snappy for her still, even with reduced loads. Wondering if anyone can give a comparison on felt recoil between the ARC, Grendel vs the .243? (In a standard weighted rifle).

223 is another option, but isn’t ideal for our purposes as it limits us to paper.

She’s shot 1000’s of .22 rounds over the years, so isn’t new to it all.

I appreciate any insight!!

 

[Weldor]

The 6mm Arc and the Grendel are very mild. Even the 6mm creed is low recoil. I've done all 3 , a 10 year old should be fine with 123 Grendel I think it is a tad less than the Arc. Depending on rifle weight.

 

[menhaden_man]

Firearms Recoil Calculator

Calculate the recoil for a rifle based on its weight and ammunition

bisonballistics.com

 

[sveltri]

I worked up a load with 87 vld's when I had my 6 ARC, shot very good, velocity was great, and recoil was nil. Kinda regret selling it.

 

[ORJoe]

IME, both ARC and Grendel are much closer to .223 than to 6.5 Creedmoor, but I've never shot a .243 or 6.0 Creedmoor for comparison to those.

 

[black dawg]

No experience with the kids shooting a grendel, but some with the 6arc, and with 243. The arc recoil for them is for sure softer, and this is with the 243 being too much for them.

What are you hunting, and what distances. We have been using the 223 for a couple years now for deer. Them being comfortable with shooting the 223 has given them great confidence hunting. And it shows.

 

[sierracharlie338]

The Grendel is a joy to shoot IMO and is a great cartridge for recoil sensitive hunters/shooters. I don’t think you can go wrong with any of them. Have you considered putting the 243 in a different stock (depending on model) to make it a little heavier to tame the recoil some? Just a thought.

 

[Decker9]

Hey thanks for the feedback!!

dawg, We’r really hoping to get her into a black bear in the spring, we have boatloads of them so makes for a easy and exciting hunt. Ideally I’d like to have her within 100 yards for her first big game animal.

I would certainly look at the .223 if we had only deer in mind, but for bears I think it would be good to have a little more bullet. Our bush gets pretty thick and dense, so a blood trail if possible is a good bonus as well. But, a .223 might be the better option for getting her into a centerfire, least until she’s got a handle on it and then step up from there.

sierra, her .243 is the Mossberg bantam youth model, we’ve tried both with and without the spacer in the butstock (12” and 13” lop), the 13” does fit a little better I think. She’s not a super tough girl, so rifle weight is a concern.

Iv been eyeballing the Howa mini’s with the idea of either trimming the butstock a bit, or if she takes a liking to it, building her a nice walnut stock for it with a youth / lady length of pull.

A muzzle break is another idea if we end up with a threaded barrel, but noise is another part of the problem We’r having as well.

Thanks again!

 

[menhaden_man]

Suppressor is great for kids… same with those Walker electronic ear muffs.

 

[Decker9]

Suppressor is great for kids…

I wish we were allowed up here!! Our Canadian laws are a bit out there though.

 

[black dawg]

As to your concerns of blood trails with bears, have used the 223 snd 243 on many deer, with basically the same lack of blood/ minimal hard to follow blood with both. Have not killed any bears with 223, but many with 243.....same deal, minimal to no blood.

As to sticking with the 243, have you gone as light as a 55 grn for practice? It is awesome that she has that much time with 22lr. Good that you noticed the recoil with the 243 being too much early.

 

[Decker9]

As to your concerns of blood trails with bears, have used the 223 snd 243 on many deer, with basically the same lack of blood/ minimal hard to follow blood with both. Have not killed any bears with 223, but many with 243.....same deal, minimal to no blood.

As to sticking with the 243, have you gone as light as a 55 grn for practice? It is awesome that she has that much time with 22lr. Good that you noticed the recoil with the 243 being too much early.

Luckily she’s come up in a family with custom rifles, she has a custom single shot 22 that she grew up on then past 5 years, and this year her grandpa give her his old Brno .22.

But, she is itchin to get into a bigger rifle for hunting.

The lightest bullet we’ve used is the 85gr Speer with a reduced load of H4895. It was better then factory for recoil, but not alot of difference.

A smaller pill might be worth trying out for sure.

 

[Formidilosus]

I would certainly look at the .223 if we had only deer in mind, but for bears I think it would be good to have a little more bullet. Our bush gets pretty thick and dense, so a blood trail if possible is a good bonus as well. But, a .223 might be the better option for getting her into a centerfire, least until she’s got a handle on it and then step up from there.

Spend the time and read this thread from start to finish. It isn’t just about 223’s- it’s about how bullets actually preform in tissue and kill.

.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

rokslide.com

Iv been eyeballing the Howa mini’s with the idea of either trimming the butstock a bit, or if she takes a liking to it, building her a nice walnut stock for it with a youth / lady length of pull.

The minis are decent. Not as smooth, and the mags aren’t as good as Tikka’s, however they do work. A Mini with sporter barrel and a Stocky’s VG is a good combo.

6.5 Grendel is fine, however it is outdone in every way by the 6ARC. The 6 ARC is simply a better cartridge- less recoil, higher MV and impact velocity, less wind drift, the same or less cost for ammo, and generally more available factory ammo.


Between 223 with certain bullets and 6 ARC, having done this enough times, it is 223 with good bullets, in a cut down Tikka without question for me and those I am around. It’s simply more shootable and more fun, and having killed multiple bear, moose, dozens of elk, way into three digits of deer and antelope- it just works.

I do not have a ton of experience with bears, however what I do have is that there are no viable combinations that will make an exit a near certainty, that also kill quickly, and even with an exit, bears tend not to leave much blood on the ground. The Hornady 6mm 105gr HPBT is probably your best bet if an exit is that much of a priority.


I’m short due to weight and size, if you read the 223 thread and deceive it will work for you, a Tikka T3 with 1-8” twist cut to 16 or 17 inches, 77gr TMK’s or one of the other bullets that work well, and a solid scope has been the best combo I have seen. If not 223, then by far the next best choice is a Howa Mini with light barrel in 6ARC, with solid scope and one of the 103-108gr match bullets.

A muzzle break is another idea if we end up with a threaded barrel, but noise is another part of the problem We’r having as well.

Thanks again!

Muzzle brakes are the devil. Especially with kids. Bullets kill, not cartridges. Drop cartridge and caliber size until recoil is way below the “acceptable” level. In a 7lb rifle all up, 243 is around 13 ft-lbs of recoil. 6 ARC is 8, and 6.5 Grendel is between them at about 10ft-lbs. 223 is 4 ft-lbs.

 

[menhaden_man]

I don't think BC has a limitation but a few provinces limit hunting to 6 mm or greater. A couple US states (like WA) have similar restrictions on < 243/6mm projectiles. Good luck either way, lots of good options.

 

[Decker9]

Spend the time and read this thread from start to finish. It isn’t just about 223’s- it’s about how bullets actually preform in tissue and kill.

.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

rokslide.com

The minis are decent. Not as smooth, and the mags aren’t as good as Tikka’s, however they do work. A Mini with sporter barrel and a Stocky’s VG is a good combo.

6.5 Grendel is fine, however it is outdone in every way by the 6ARC. The 6 ARC is simply a better cartridge- less recoil, higher MV and impact velocity, less wind drift, the same or less cost for ammo, and generally more available factory ammo.


Between 223 with certain bullets and 6 ARC, having done this enough times, it is 223 with good bullets, in a cut down Tikka without question for me and those I am around. It’s simply more shootable and more fun, and having killed multiple bear, moose, dozens of elk, way into three digits of deer and antelope- it just works.

I do not have a ton of experience with bears, however what I do have is that there are no viable combinations that will make an exit a near certainty, that also kill quickly, and even with an exit, bears tend not to leave much blood on the ground. The Hornady 6mm 105gr HPBT is probably your best bet if an exit is that much of a priority.


I’m short due to weight and size, if you read the 223 thread and deceive it will work for you, a Tikka T3 with 1-8” twist cut to 16 or 17 inches, 77gr TMK’s or one of the other bullets that work well, and a solid scope has been the best combo I have seen. If not 223, then by far the next best choice is a Howa Mini with light barrel in 6ARC, with solid scope and one of the 103-108gr match bullets.




Muzzle brakes are the devil. Especially with kids. Bullets kill, not cartridges. Drop cartridge and caliber size until recoil is way below the “acceptable” level. In a 7lb rifle all up, 243 is around 13 ft-lbs of recoil. 6 ARC is 8, and 6.5 Grendel is between them at about 10ft-lbs. 223 is 4 ft-lbs.

Thanks a bunch for this! Iv read through that thread a few times, I was a non believer I’ll admit, but the proof is there no doubt.

If it weren’t for black bear being our higher probability, I would be all over the exact combo, a t3 lite in 223 for her. I may even just do the .223 route for the time being until she has a handle on it, I didn’t realize the recoil of the .223 was a fraction of the .243.
Iv located 1 ARC in a mini online (in Canada), listed a couple hundred dollars over retail though. I will keep my eyes open for one in the meantime

 

[redneckbmxer24]

It’s been a while since I’ve had a Grendel but it was pretty soft. Less recoil than a 243 for sure and also less muzzle blast. 6 ARC recoils like a 223. I have identical rifles in 223 and ARC and shooting side by side there is zero difference in felt recoil. The difference is that the ARC rocks a plate A LOT harder when hit which is energy.

6 ARC will be my new hunting round. It’s pretty awesome.

 

[hereinaz]

Howa Mini in 6 ARC with the Stocky’s VG2 gets my vote. The bullet is better sized to the powder charge of the case capacity, so you get higher BC and higher velocity over the 6.5 Grendel.

I shoot a Howa Mini built out to a 6BRA and it is a pleasure to shoot and does not have the sharp punch of the .243/6 cm. It has a few grains more powder than the 6 ARC.

Other than that, Form covered more than I could add…

 

[wirehead]

My experience with 6.5G has been in an AR platform… my then 9 now 10 year old daughter shot it no problem at all and she is also a noise / recoil wimp. Some Walkers ear pro helped a lot. Re: recoil, I suspect the AR platform had something to do with the reduction in and smoothing of the recoil impulse.

I’ve studied over the 6.5G quite a bit… it is a great round. I equate it to a 6.5C with 30% less distance (as a function on minimum velocity).

Using ELD-Ms as examples the 123 6.5G and 108 6ARC have sectional densities that are 0.252 vs 0.261, respectively.

The 6.5G 123 ELD-M at 2580 MV > 1800 out to 500 yards.
The 6 ARC 108 ELD-M at 2750 MV is > 1800 out to 600.

Pick your side carefully - pick one and the other will harass you. Pick either and the 223 77 TMK crowd may block you from Rokslide.

 

[Moose83]

Thanks a bunch for this! Iv read through that thread a few times, I was a non believer I’ll admit, but the proof is there no doubt.

If it weren’t for black bear being our higher probability, I would be all over the exact combo, a t3 lite in 223 for her. I may even just do the .223 route for the time being until she has a handle on it, I didn’t realize the recoil of the .223 was a fraction of the .243.
Iv located 1 ARC in a mini online (in Canada), listed a couple hundred dollars over retail though. I will keep my eyes open for one in the meantime

There was an 8 twist .223 stainless tikka on the shelf at Canadian Tire in Smithers last time i was there... just sayin'. In all honesty though this is the route I went as well. It's just so easy and economical for my kids and myself to shoot well. For 100 yard practice I'm using 13 grains of Imr 4198 behind the bulk 55gr hornadys from Nechakooutdoors.ca. For hunting bears this past spring I used a 73gr eld-m to take a 6ish ft boar. I did manage to procure a sizeable stash (by Canadian standards) of 77 TMK to try this year as the lack of blood trail you are worried about is a thing. So I plan on trying these this coming spring to see if they shorten up the death run. If you do want to stay with the .243... look up a guy named Seafire on the 24hourcampfire forum. He has multiple threads on reduced loads in the .243 and other cartridges using 30grs of Imr 4198. Sorry for the long winded answer... hope it helps your decision process!

 

[Decker9]

Thanks fellas . I had held off until Boxing Day to see if I could find a sale on either tikka .223 or Howa of sorts. After a lot of debating now I think I’ll jump into a Grendel for her.

Prophet River has a mini Grendel on sale, but in the plastic stock, I think I’ll go that route and just trim down the stock if it’s to long, then replace it with walnut in a couple/few years after a few growth spurts.